People, every show
Everyone on the record, counted once across the shows in view, with the same record a show's own people table carries. Click a header to sort everyone, a name for that person across every show, a show tile for their page there. Corpus average certainty is 3.9/5; deltas show each person against it. Argument clarity carries a full score for 876 people (gold bar, raw unedited tape) and a coarse estimate for 4,440 more (blue bar); on the hub a score rests on the show with the most assessed tape, and the tooltip names it. Roles are as of the recording.
shows 
every show 44 of 44
9,610people on record
1,254on more than one show
262,168statements attributed
257,971are checkable claims
52,566resolved so far
| Person | Shows | Eps | Statements | Claims | Supported | Partly supported | Contradicted | Full support rate | Certainty | Argument clarity | WPM | Fillers/1k |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 Sam Altman ×37 CEO, OpenAI |     +8     | 37 | 721 | 281 | 42 | 6 | 3 | 82% 42/51 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.1 | 280 | 16.2 |
 Amjad Masad ×18 Co-founder & CEO, Replit |  +8     | 18 | 450 | 209 | 34 | 15 | 4 | 64% 34/53 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.3 | 249 | 31.7 |
 Elad Gil ×146 host Founder, Gil Capital |   +6     | 146 | 521 | 227 | 62 | 13 | 14 | 70% 62/89 | 3.5/5 -0.4 | 4.0 | ≈262 | ≥2.2 |
 Aaron Levie ×34 Co-Founder & CEO, Box | +6 | 34 | 447 | 214 | 21 | 2 | 1 | 88% 21/24 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.3 | 283 | 25.8 |
 Reid Hoffman ×100 host Partner, Greylock | +5 | 100 | 672 | 223 | 83 | 12 | 9 | 80% 83/104 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.1 | 243 | 18.2 |
 Brian Armstrong ×17 Co-Founder & CEO, Coinbase | +5 | 17 | 351 | 176 | 67 | 14 | 6 | 77% 67/87 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.1 | 287 | 13.1 |
 Scott Wu ×16 Co-founder & CEO, Cognition | +5 | 16 | 239 | 129 | 29 | 6 | 0 | 83% 29/35 | 3.6/5 -0.3 | 3.9 | 311 | 15.6 |
 Eric Ries ×11 Founder & CEO, Long-Term Stock Exchange |  +5 | 11 | 219 | 85 | 37 | 11 | 4 | 71% 37/52 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.5 | ≈314 | ≥6.2 |
 David Senra ×180 host Host, Founders Podcast |   +4 | 180 | 2,649 | 1,364 | 895 | 152 | 70 | 80% 895/1117 | 4/5 +0.1 | ≈3.5 | ||
 Marc Andreessen ×99 Co-Founder and General Partner, Andreessen Horowitz | +4 | 99 | 1,401 | 681 | 144 | 62 | 56 | 55% 144/262 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.0 | 324 | 30.7 |
 Dylan Patel ×12 Founder & Chief Analyst, SemiAnalysis | +4 | 12 | 390 | 283 | 94 | 29 | 15 | 68% 94/138 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 3.9 | 290 | 29.6 |
 Guillermo Rauch ×11 Founder & CEO, Vercel | +4 | 11 | 262 | 124 | 26 | 6 | 3 | 74% 26/35 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.2 | 241 | 11 |
 Dylan Field ×13 Co-founder and CEO, Figma | +4 | 13 | 202 | 79 | 23 | 2 | 0 | 92% 23/25 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | ≈4.5 | 300 | 38.4 |
 Ryan Petersen ×18 Founder & CEO, Flexport | +3 | 18 | 368 | 192 | 65 | 31 | 18 | 57% 65/114 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.1 | 281 | 14.5 |
 Aravind Srinivas ×11 Co-founder & CEO, Perplexity AI | +3 | 11 | 311 | 141 | 25 | 5 | 4 | 74% 25/34 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.2 | 256 | 20.8 |
 Jensen Huang ×14 Founder and CEO, NVIDIA | +3 | 14 | 316 | 160 | 38 | 13 | 9 | 63% 38/60 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 3.7 | 254 | 13.9 |
 Brian Halligan ×13 Co-Founder & Executive Chairperson, HubSpot | +3 | 13 | 248 | 85 | 20 | 7 | 5 | 63% 20/32 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.3 | 267 | 14 |
 Bret Taylor ×11 CEO & Co-Founder, Sierra | +3 | 11 | 239 | 89 | 10 | 1 | 4 | 67% 10/15 | 3.5/5 -0.4 | 4.1 | 226 | 27.1 |
 Satya Nadella ×10 Chairman and CEO, Microsoft | +3 | 10 | 220 | 87 | 19 | 3 | 1 | 83% 19/23 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.0 | 241 | 31.6 |
 David Baszucki ×7 Co-founder & CEO, Roblox | +3 | 7 | 156 | 89 | 27 | 8 | 4 | 69% 27/39 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | 204 | 20.1 |
 Wade Foster ×11 Co-founder & CEO, Zapier | +3 | 11 | 187 | 68 | 24 | 2 | 0 | 92% 24/26 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.5 | 294 | 28.3 |
 Alex Lieberman ×216 host Co-Founder & Executive Chairman, Morning Brew |   +2 | 216 | 1,267 | 454 | 209 | 49 | 11 | 78% 209/269 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | ||
 Bill Gurley ×49 host General Partner, Benchmark | +2 | 49 | 556 | 226 | 74 | 34 | 12 | 62% 74/120 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | ≈4.5 | 245 | 9.8 |
 Joe Lonsdale ×171 host Founder & Managing Partner, 8VC | +2 | 171 | 529 | 266 | 71 | 35 | 25 | 54% 71/131 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.1 | 297 | 8.7 |
 Balaji Srinivasan ×20 Founder, The Network School | +2 | 20 | 463 | 197 | 38 | 13 | 3 | 70% 38/54 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.2 | 276 | 12.3 |
 Garry Tan ×51 host President & CEO, Y Combinator | +2 | 51 | 350 | 148 | 42 | 8 | 12 | 68% 42/62 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | ≈4.0 | 257 | 31.1 |
 Tobi Lütke ×9 Co-Founder and CEO, Shopify | +2 | 9 | 272 | 57 | 17 | 6 | 4 | 63% 17/27 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 3.8 | 281 | 63.1 |
 Mark Cuban ×15 Co-founder, Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company | +2 | 15 | 298 | 136 | 26 | 12 | 6 | 59% 26/44 | 4/5 +0.1 | 4.2 | 271 | 11.1 |
 Vlad Tenev ×11 Co-Founder & CEO, Robinhood | +2 | 11 | 225 | 136 | 67 | 11 | 2 | 84% 67/80 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.1 | 229 | 22.1 |
 Jason Fried ×10 Co-founder and CEO, 37signals | +2 | 10 | 218 | 37 | 10 | 2 | 0 | 83% 10/12 | 4.1/5 +0.2 | 4.4 | 292 | 21.9 |
 Shyam Sankar ×10 CTO & EVP, Palantir Technologies | +2 | 10 | 167 | 78 | 32 | 15 | 10 | 56% 32/57 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.1 | 280 | 13.4 |
 Emil Michael ×9 Under Secretary of Defense, U.S. Department of Defense | +2 | 9 | 208 | 124 | 44 | 24 | 11 | 56% 44/79 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.3 | 241 | 14 |
 Palmer Luckey ×9 Founder, Anduril Industries | +2 | 9 | 201 | 88 | 17 | 9 | 5 | 55% 17/31 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.5 | 269 | 7.6 |
 Bryan Johnson ×11 Founder, Project Blueprint | +2 | 11 | 195 | 81 | 11 | 2 | 3 | 69% 11/16 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 3.9 | 240 | 10.2 |
 Mati Staniszewski ×8 Co-founder & CEO, ElevenLabs | +2 | 8 | 188 | 91 | 25 | 3 | 1 | 86% 25/29 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.1 | 278 | 21.7 |
 Marc Benioff ×10 Chair, CEO & Co-Founder, Salesforce | +2 | 10 | 179 | 102 | 30 | 13 | 6 | 61% 30/49 | 4.1/5 +0.2 | 3.7 | 248 | 9.6 |
 Dara Khosrowshahi ×9 CEO, Uber | +2 | 9 | 176 | 92 | 45 | 3 | 0 | 94% 45/48 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.4 | 243 | 13.2 |
 Michael Ovitz ×8 Chairman, Treville Capital Group | +2 | 8 | 174 | 74 | 13 | 11 | 11 | 37% 13/35 | 4.1/5 +0.2 | ≈4.0 | 235 | 15 |
| Howie Liu ×11 Co-Founder & CEO, Airtable | +2 | 11 | 169 | 68 | 17 | 2 | 2 | 81% 17/21 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.3 | 267 | 28.3 |
 Eric Glyman ×11 Co-Founder and Co-CEO, Ramp | +2 | 11 | 167 | 80 | 21 | 7 | 6 | 62% 21/34 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.1 | 276 | 66.4 |
 Mark Pincus ×10 Founder & Executive Chairman, Zynga | +2 | 10 | 163 | 50 | 7 | 6 | 3 | 44% 7/16 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | 289 | 9.3 |
 Alexandr Wang ×7 Chief AI Officer, Meta Platforms | +2 | 7 | 105 | 64 | 17 | 5 | 2 | 71% 17/24 | 3.6/5 -0.3 | 4.1 | 271 | 44.5 |
 Drew Houston ×7 Co-Founder and Co-CEO, Dropbox | +2 | 7 | 119 | 43 | 15 | 1 | 1 | 88% 15/17 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.3 | 275 | 26.3 |
 Gary Vaynerchuk ×6 Chairman, VaynerX & CEO, VaynerMedia | +2 | 6 | 76 | 25 | 3 | 4 | 0 | 43% 3/7 | 4/5 +0.1 | ≈4.5 | ≈279 | ≥5.5 |
 Mark Zuckerberg ×8 Founder & CEO, Meta | +2 | 8 | 117 | 42 | 7 | 4 | 1 | 58% 7/12 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | ≈4.0 | 275 | 18.3 |
 Patrick Collison ×10 Co-founder & CEO, Stripe | +2 | 10 | 108 | 43 | 13 | 7 | 2 | 59% 13/22 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | ≈4.0 | 292 | 25.7 |
 Arvind Jain ×8 Co-founder & CEO, Glean |  +2 | 8 | 102 | 47 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 36% 4/11 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.3 | 260 | 33.1 |
 David Friedberg ×386 host Founder & CEO, The Production Board | +1 | 386 | 1,859 | 1,370 | 392 | 222 | 131 | 53% 392/745 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.0 | 269 | 16.2 |
 Jason Calacanis ×433 host Founder & CEO, LAUNCH | +1 | 433 | 1,425 | 989 | 363 | 134 | 58 | 65% 363/555 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 3.3 | 263 | 15.4 |
 Ben Horowitz ×94 Co-Founder and General Partner, Andreessen Horowitz | +1 | 94 | 945 | 377 | 65 | 53 | 35 | 42% 65/153 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.3 | 252 | 30.7 |
 Brad Gerstner ×70 host Founder & CEO, Altimeter Capital | +1 | 70 | 867 | 589 | 197 | 85 | 50 | 59% 197/332 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.3 | 240 | 8.8 |
 Chris Dixon ×65 Founder & Managing Partner, a16z crypto | +1 | 65 | 584 | 285 | 61 | 27 | 29 | 52% 61/117 | 3.6/5 -0.3 | 4.0 | 287 | 20.2 |
 Gavin Baker ×19 Managing Partner & CIO, Atreides Management | +1 | 19 | 422 | 264 | 40 | 25 | 17 | 49% 40/82 | 3.6/5 -0.3 | ≈4.0 | 248 | 11.4 |
 Keith Rabois ×15 Managing Director, Khosla Ventures | +1 | 15 | 350 | 119 | 27 | 7 | 13 | 57% 27/47 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.3 | 246 | 12.6 |
| Morgan Housel ×11 Partner, The Collaborative Fund | +1 | 11 | 338 | 66 | 23 | 13 | 7 | 53% 23/43 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | ≈4.5 | ||
| Andrew Feldman ×12 Co-Founder and CEO, Cerebras Systems | +1 | 12 | 268 | 148 | 51 | 14 | 10 | 68% 51/75 | 4/5 +0.1 | 4.2 | 237 | 25.9 |
| Mike Maples ×7 Founding Partner, Floodgate | +1 | 7 | 157 | 36 | 15 | 4 | 2 | 71% 15/21 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.0 | 262 | 13.4 |
| Joe Liemandt ×6 Principal, Alpha School | +1 | 6 | 222 | 108 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 50% 16/32 | 4.1/5 +0.2 | ≈4.0 | ||
 Elon Musk ×13 CEO, Tesla and SpaceX |  +1 | 13 | 220 | 125 | 20 | 11 | 10 | 49% 20/41 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 3.6 | 276 | 58.8 |
 Matthew Prince ×9 Co-Founder & CEO, Cloudflare | +1 | 9 | 215 | 120 | 31 | 13 | 10 | 57% 31/54 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 3.9 | 269 | 28.4 |
 Sridhar Ramaswamy ×9 CEO, Snowflake | +1 | 9 | 205 | 98 | 18 | 5 | 4 | 67% 18/27 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.3 | 234 | 13.9 |
| Dharmesh Shah ×10 Co-Founder and CTO, HubSpot | +1 | 10 | 197 | 49 | 13 | 2 | 1 | 81% 13/16 | 4/5 +0.1 | 4.3 | 300 | 31.4 |
 Qasar Younis ×12 Co-founder & CEO, Applied Intuition | +1 | 12 | 197 | 87 | 15 | 6 | 1 | 68% 15/22 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 3.9 | 268 | 27.7 |
| Josh Wolfe ×9 Co-Founder & Managing Partner, Lux Capital | +1 | 9 | 192 | 78 | 23 | 6 | 4 | 70% 23/33 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | ≈272 | ≥3.3 |
 Ryan Holiday ×13 Founder & Host, The Daily Stoic | +1 | 13 | 169 | 35 | 13 | 2 | 3 | 72% 13/18 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.0 | ||
 Howard Marks ×8 Co-Founder and Co-Chairman, Oaktree Capital Management | +1 | 8 | 160 | 49 | 24 | 3 | 5 | 75% 24/32 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | ≈232 | ≥4.3 |
| Keller Rinaudo Cliffton ×4 Co-Founder & CEO, Zipline | +1 | 4 | 87 | 58 | 35 | 12 | 5 | 67% 35/52 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.5 | 274 | 9.8 |
 Brian Chesky ×7 Co-founder and CEO, Airbnb | +1 | 7 | 141 | 61 | 21 | 3 | 2 | 81% 21/26 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | ≈4.5 | ||
 Matt Mullenweg ×6 Founder & CEO, Automattic | +1 | 6 | 135 | 66 | 29 | 4 | 2 | 83% 29/35 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.3 | 280 | 29.4 |
 Noah Kagan ×8 Founder & CEO, AppSumo | +1 | 8 | 108 | 50 | 5 | 0 | 3 | 63% 5/8 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.0 | ||
| Suhail Doshi ×6 Founder & CEO, Playground | +1 | 6 | 86 | 28 | 4 | 0 | 3 | 57% 4/7 | 3.6/5 -0.3 | ≈4.0 | ||
| Jason Cohen ×6 Founder & Chief Innovation Officer, WP Engine | +1 | 6 | 83 | 20 | 8 | 3 | 2 | 62% 8/13 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.5 | ||
| Jason Lemkin ×242 host Founder & CEO, SaaStr | | 242 | 3,111 | 1,463 | 356 | 183 | 105 | 55% 356/644 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.0 | 282 | 11 |
 Chamath Palihapitiya ×406 host Founder & CEO, Social Capital | | 406 | 2,774 | 1,710 | 368 | 194 | 208 | 48% 368/770 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.0 | 263 | 9.6 |
 Benedict Evans ×158 host Independent Technology Analyst |  | 158 | 2,005 | 895 | 385 | 100 | 51 | 72% 385/536 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 3.9 | 286 | 11.8 |
 Sam Lessin ×149 host Founding Partner, Slow Ventures | | 149 | 1,536 | 495 | 64 | 14 | 23 | 63% 64/101 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 3.9 | 260 | 15.8 |
| Codie Sanchez ×168 host Founder & CEO, Contrarian Thinking | | 168 | 1,055 | 391 | 146 | 63 | 73 | 52% 146/282 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 3.5 | ||
| Andrew Wilkinson ×21 Co-Founder and Managing Partner, Tiny | | 21 | 353 | 110 | 28 | 10 | 5 | 65% 28/43 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | ≈229 | ≥0.7 |
 Sarah Guo ×172 host Founder & General Partner, Conviction | | 172 | 234 | 115 | 26 | 3 | 3 | 81% 26/32 | 3.6/5 -0.3 | 4.4 | 225 | 20.6 |
 Nikesh Arora ×8 Chairman & CEO, Palo Alto Networks | | 8 | 200 | 94 | 14 | 12 | 8 | 41% 14/34 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.1 | 286 | 7.9 |
 Greg Brockman ×8 President & Co-founder, OpenAI | | 8 | 198 | 106 | 32 | 3 | 1 | 89% 32/36 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.0 | ||
| Sahil Bloom ×38 Managing Partner, SRB Ventures | | 38 | 187 | 83 | 28 | 11 | 7 | 61% 28/46 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.5 | 273 | 24 |
 Boris Cherny ×6 Head of Claude Code, Anthropic | | 6 | 181 | 94 | 16 | 2 | 3 | 76% 16/21 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.4 | 298 | 17.3 |
 Brett Adcock ×9 Founder & CEO, Figure AI | | 9 | 179 | 96 | 31 | 2 | 3 | 86% 31/36 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | ||
 Ben Thompson ×7 Founder & Author, Stratechery | | 7 | 176 | 42 | 10 | 1 | 1 | 83% 10/12 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | ≈4.5 | ||
 Mike Krieger ×11 Chief Product Officer, Anthropic | | 11 | 175 | 60 | 14 | 0 | 0 | 100% 14/14 | 3.7/5 -0.2 | 4.0 | 279 | 16.6 |
| Adam Robinson ×11 Founder & CEO, Retention.com |  | 11 | 180 | 75 | 14 | 4 | 8 | 54% 14/26 | 4/5 +0.1 | ≈4.0 | ||
 Alexis Ohanian ×8 Founder & General Partner, Seven Seven Six | | 8 | 168 | 81 | 25 | 6 | 2 | 76% 25/33 | 4/5 +0.1 | 4.2 | 256 | 8.1 |
| Gustav Söderström ×6 Co-CEO, Spotify | | 6 | 157 | 68 | 17 | 4 | 3 | 71% 17/24 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.4 | 284 | 13.5 |
 Arthur Mensch ×6 Co-Founder & CEO, Mistral AI | | 6 | 146 | 68 | 16 | 2 | 1 | 84% 16/19 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.3 | 250 | 49.2 |
 John Mackey ×6 Co-Founder & CEO, Love.Life | | 6 | 142 | 76 | 30 | 8 | 0 | 79% 30/38 | 4/5 +0.1 | ≈4.5 | ||
 Vinod Khosla ×7 Founder, Khosla Ventures | | 7 | 142 | 60 | 8 | 4 | 1 | 62% 8/13 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.1 | 177 | 25.7 |
 Dan Siroker ×7 Co-Founder & CEO, Optimizely | | 7 | 130 | 36 | 8 | 3 | 0 | 73% 8/11 | 4/5 +0.1 | 4.4 | 312 | 12.2 |
 Sheel Mohnot ×28 Co-Founder & General Partner, Better Tomorrow Ventures |   | 28 | 130 | 40 | 15 | 5 | 3 | 65% 15/23 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.5 | 275 | 14.7 |
 Ray Dalio ×7 Founder and Mentor, Bridgewater Associates | | 7 | 130 | 58 | 13 | 8 | 0 | 62% 13/21 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 3.3 | 208 | 21.1 |
 RJ Scaringe ×7 Founder & CEO, Rivian | | 7 | 125 | 64 | 21 | 7 | 6 | 62% 21/34 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.5 | ||
 Scott Belsky ×9 Partner, A24 | | 9 | 160 | 38 | 2 | 5 | 1 | 25% 2/8 | 3.8/5 -0.1 | 4.3 | 244 | 14.5 |
| Zachary Perret Co-founder & CEO, Plaid | | 1 | 8 | 6 | 13 | 5 | 4 | 59% 13/22 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | 4.2 | ||
| Stewart Butterfield ×7 Co-founder & Former CEO, Slack | | 7 | 119 | 45 | 14 | 2 | 4 | 70% 14/20 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.0 | ≈243 | ≥4.9 |
 Tony Xu ×7 Co-Founder and CEO, DoorDash | | 7 | 116 | 69 | 20 | 6 | 4 | 67% 20/30 | 3.9/5 +0.0 | ≈4.0 | ≈240 | ≥1.8 |
Why this person has no speaking number
We measure speaking style by listening to the audio itself: a model transcribes the tape verbatim, every "um" and "uh" kept, and articulation rate comes from the word timings. A fair number needs at least 2,000 words from one person on tape we have measured, and we have less of them than that. A rate from a smaller sample would be noise, so we print nothing. It says nothing about how they speak.
A plain figure in these columns comes from raw-level tape. A dim figure with ≈ or ≥ comes from the aired feed of an edited show, where the editor cut some hesitation before release, so it is a floor. How it's measured →
every person on the shows in view, most shows first and most checkable claims within a tie; every column header sorts all of them. eps, statements, claims and the record are summed across their shows; eps leaves out compilation re-airs and clips rolled into someone else's episode, the same rule as every person page. Sorting by statements or eps across shows uses the checkable claim count and the show count, the two numbers that exist for everyone at once. certainty is weighted by statements. argument clarity, WPM and fillers come from one show's tape, the one with the most assessed exchanges or measured words; hover a figure to see which. full support rate = fully supported ÷ resolved; sorting it puts records of five or more resolved first, and percentages on fewer than 5 resolved statements are greyed. A ? means under 2,000 words of measured tape anywhere.