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Sep 22, 2018 · 21m · top-founders

1155 How He's Used Stories to Build a $20m+ SaaS Platform for Scaling Content

Nathan Latka · 7m spoken Robert McKee · 6m spoken Tom Gerace · 4m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Host Nathan Latka interviews Skyword founder Tom Gerace and renowned storytelling authority Robert McKee to discuss how enterprise brands can transition from interruptive advertising to compelling story-driven marketing, while examining Skyword's growth into a $20 million ARR SaaS-plus-services platform.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 40% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 5.2 Guest disagreement 3.4 Nathan pushing back 4.2
05100:0010:0020:001:43–4:35 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Origins of Skyword and the Robert McKee Storynomics Partnership Latka guides the introduction and playfully jokes about McKee's appearance. McKee and Gerace explain the origin of their partnership and Storynomics collaboration smoothly without friction.4:35–7:45 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Skyword Business Model, Equity Raise, and Twenty Million ARR Latka drills into Skyword's business fundamentals, asking why a SaaS founder would spend time writing a book and pressing on the SaaS versus professional services revenue split. Gerace outlines their $20M ARR, $25M funding round, and subscription model.7:45–12:39 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Narrative Versus Story Structure and the Attention Span Debate McKee bluntly dismisses Latka's marketing examples and forcefully rejects Latka's claim about shrinking attention spans. Latka challenges McKee by accusing him of splitting hairs, but McKee counters by pointing to long-form binge watching to prove it is an interest span issue.12:43–18:44 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Freshworks FreshChat Messaging Software Platform Sponsor Spotlight After an ad read, Latka presses McKee on whether long-form storytelling can compete with viral, real-time social media moments. McKee and Gerace push back using Apple's 1984 ad and Bud Light's campaign to show how inciting incidents and negative turning points hook audiences.18:45–20:12 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Overcoming Negaphobia and Embracing Conflict in Corporate Marketing Gerace breaks down McKee's concept of negaphobia, demonstrating how corporate aversion to negative tension cripples storytelling. Latka asks for specific real-world examples to clarify the concept.1:43–4:35 · Guest teaching 2/10 Origins of Skyword and the Robert McKee Storynomics Partnership Latka guides the introduction and playfully jokes about McKee's appearance. McKee and Gerace explain the origin of their partnership and Storynomics collaboration smoothly without friction.4:35–7:45 · Guest teaching 2/10 Skyword Business Model, Equity Raise, and Twenty Million ARR Latka drills into Skyword's business fundamentals, asking why a SaaS founder would spend time writing a book and pressing on the SaaS versus professional services revenue split. Gerace outlines their $20M ARR, $25M funding round, and subscription model.7:45–12:39 · Guest teaching 8/10 Narrative Versus Story Structure and the Attention Span Debate McKee bluntly dismisses Latka's marketing examples and forcefully rejects Latka's claim about shrinking attention spans. Latka challenges McKee by accusing him of splitting hairs, but McKee counters by pointing to long-form binge watching to prove it is an interest span issue.12:43–18:44 · Guest teaching 7/10 Freshworks FreshChat Messaging Software Platform Sponsor Spotlight After an ad read, Latka presses McKee on whether long-form storytelling can compete with viral, real-time social media moments. McKee and Gerace push back using Apple's 1984 ad and Bud Light's campaign to show how inciting incidents and negative turning points hook audiences.18:45–20:12 · Guest teaching 7/10 Overcoming Negaphobia and Embracing Conflict in Corporate Marketing Gerace breaks down McKee's concept of negaphobia, demonstrating how corporate aversion to negative tension cripples storytelling. Latka asks for specific real-world examples to clarify the concept.1:43–4:35 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Origins of Skyword and the Robert McKee Storynomics Partnership Latka guides the introduction and playfully jokes about McKee's appearance. McKee and Gerace explain the origin of their partnership and Storynomics collaboration smoothly without friction.4:35–7:45 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Skyword Business Model, Equity Raise, and Twenty Million ARR Latka drills into Skyword's business fundamentals, asking why a SaaS founder would spend time writing a book and pressing on the SaaS versus professional services revenue split. Gerace outlines their $20M ARR, $25M funding round, and subscription model.7:45–12:39 · Guest disagreement 8/10 Narrative Versus Story Structure and the Attention Span Debate McKee bluntly dismisses Latka's marketing examples and forcefully rejects Latka's claim about shrinking attention spans. Latka challenges McKee by accusing him of splitting hairs, but McKee counters by pointing to long-form binge watching to prove it is an interest span issue.12:43–18:44 · Guest disagreement 5/10 Freshworks FreshChat Messaging Software Platform Sponsor Spotlight After an ad read, Latka presses McKee on whether long-form storytelling can compete with viral, real-time social media moments. McKee and Gerace push back using Apple's 1984 ad and Bud Light's campaign to show how inciting incidents and negative turning points hook audiences.18:45–20:12 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Overcoming Negaphobia and Embracing Conflict in Corporate Marketing Gerace breaks down McKee's concept of negaphobia, demonstrating how corporate aversion to negative tension cripples storytelling. Latka asks for specific real-world examples to clarify the concept.1:43–4:35 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Origins of Skyword and the Robert McKee Storynomics Partnership Latka guides the introduction and playfully jokes about McKee's appearance. McKee and Gerace explain the origin of their partnership and Storynomics collaboration smoothly without friction.4:35–7:45 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Skyword Business Model, Equity Raise, and Twenty Million ARR Latka drills into Skyword's business fundamentals, asking why a SaaS founder would spend time writing a book and pressing on the SaaS versus professional services revenue split. Gerace outlines their $20M ARR, $25M funding round, and subscription model.7:45–12:39 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Narrative Versus Story Structure and the Attention Span Debate McKee bluntly dismisses Latka's marketing examples and forcefully rejects Latka's claim about shrinking attention spans. Latka challenges McKee by accusing him of splitting hairs, but McKee counters by pointing to long-form binge watching to prove it is an interest span issue.12:43–18:44 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Freshworks FreshChat Messaging Software Platform Sponsor Spotlight After an ad read, Latka presses McKee on whether long-form storytelling can compete with viral, real-time social media moments. McKee and Gerace push back using Apple's 1984 ad and Bud Light's campaign to show how inciting incidents and negative turning points hook audiences.18:45–20:12 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Overcoming Negaphobia and Embracing Conflict in Corporate Marketing Gerace breaks down McKee's concept of negaphobia, demonstrating how corporate aversion to negative tension cripples storytelling. Latka asks for specific real-world examples to clarify the concept.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 64% · guest 36%0:00 · Nathan 64% · guest 36%3:00 · Nathan 26.6% · guest 73.4%3:00 · Nathan 26.6% · guest 73.4%6:00 · Nathan 41.7% · guest 58.3%6:00 · Nathan 41.7% · guest 58.3%9:00 · Nathan 34.6% · guest 65.4%9:00 · Nathan 34.6% · guest 65.4%12:00 · Nathan 72.9% · guest 27.1%12:00 · Nathan 72.9% · guest 27.1%15:00 · Nathan 17.8% · guest 82.2%15:00 · Nathan 17.8% · guest 82.2%18:00 · Nathan 16.9% · guest 83.1%18:00 · Nathan 16.9% · guest 83.1%21:00 · Nathan 52.5% · guest 47.5%21:00 · Nathan 52.5% · guest 47.5%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 11:30 McKee rejects Latka's premise on attention spans

McKee directly cuts Latka off to label his premise entirely wrong, arguing that biological attention spans have not changed since cavemen sat around fires.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 11:59 Latka pushes back against McKee's definition

Latka refuses McKee's framing and directly confronts him, asserting that the audience will see McKee as merely splitting hairs.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 8:19 McKee differentiates narrative sequence from true story structure

McKee bluntly diagnoses Latka's failed sales page as a weak narrative of 'and then' sequences rather than a genuine story with dynamic turns.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 5:50 Latka scrutinizes SaaS churn and services ARR metrics

Latka demonstrates deep SaaS financial expertise by pressing Gerace on whether professional services revenue is artificially inflating the reported $20M ARR figure.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Origins of Skyword and the Robert McKee Storynomics Partnership 3211 Latka guides the introduction and playfully jokes about McKee's appearance. McKee and Gerace explain the origin of their partnership and Storynomics collaboration smoothly without friction.
Skyword Business Model, Equity Raise, and Twenty Million ARR 7214 Latka drills into Skyword's business fundamentals, asking why a SaaS founder would spend time writing a book and pressing on the SaaS versus professional services revenue split. Gerace outlines their $20M ARR, $25M funding round, and subscription model.
Narrative Versus Story Structure and the Attention Span Debate 5887 McKee bluntly dismisses Latka's marketing examples and forcefully rejects Latka's claim about shrinking attention spans. Latka challenges McKee by accusing him of splitting hairs, but McKee counters by pointing to long-form binge watching to prove it is an interest span issue.
Freshworks FreshChat Messaging Software Platform Sponsor Spotlight 5755 After an ad read, Latka presses McKee on whether long-form storytelling can compete with viral, real-time social media moments. McKee and Gerace push back using Apple's 1984 ad and Bud Light's campaign to show how inciting incidents and negative turning points hook audiences.
Overcoming Negaphobia and Embracing Conflict in Corporate Marketing 4724 Gerace breaks down McKee's concept of negaphobia, demonstrating how corporate aversion to negative tension cripples storytelling. Latka asks for specific real-world examples to clarify the concept.

Statements from this episode (8)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Gerace: Skyword helps IBM, MasterCard, and Samsung shift to story-centric marketing
“We help companies like IBM, MasterCard Samsung Transform their primary marketing approach from ad-centric to story-centric.”
Tom Gerace Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 1:53
Disclosure
Gerace: Skyword works with roughly 150 mostly US-based enterprise brands
“We work with about a 150 large brands mostly U S based”
Tom Gerace Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 5:12
Disclosure
Gerace: Skyword revenue is roughly two-thirds SaaS and one-third services
“It's about two-thirds SaaS, about a third services.”
Tom Gerace Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 5:57
Disclosure
Gerace: Skyword raised $25M growth round and is approaching $20M ARR
“We just raised a twenty five million dollar growth equity round from Rowe Capital. And closed we announced that last month. I closed it just at the end of December. And we are approaching twenty million in ARR.”
Tom Gerace Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 6:07
Insight
McKee: Investors care about product execution stories, not founder biographies
“I think the story that an investor wants to be told is how this product is going to work in the world and how the product or the service that you're going to create works and will work.”
Robert McKee Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 10:43
Insight
McKee: Human attention spans haven't changed, only interest spans have shortened
“People's attention spans have not changed since we sat around the fire in caves. Your attention span is determined by your genetics, and the human genome hasn't changed. What has changed is people's interest spans.”
Robert McKee Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 11:37
Insight
McKee: Feature bragging fails on younger audiences who demand stories
“How do you persuade people? You can do one of two things. You can brag and promise. We're the biggest, we're the best, and promise, we'll do this for you, we'll do that for you. You can brag and promise. What do you call, you know Benefits and features in, in …”
Robert McKee Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 17:40
Insight
Gerace: Marketers fail at storytelling because they avoid negative conflict
“What Bob just pointed out that is so important and that most marketers miss is the idea that great stories are dynamic. They go negative, positive, negative, positive, and if you don't do that, you bore your audience in a heartbeat, and so Bob coined this phra…”
Tom Gerace Sep 22, 2018 ▶ 19:47
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