Mar 16, 2023 · 50m · how-i-built-this
HIBT Lab! Saysh: Wes and Allyson Felix
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of 'How I Built This Lab,' Guy Raz speaks with Olympic champion Allyson Felix and her brother and manager, Wes Felix, about overcoming athletic adversity, fighting maternal discrimination in corporate sponsorships, and founding Saysh to engineer footwear tailored specifically for women.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 27.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 2.5 Guest disagreement 0.0 Guy pushing back 0.0
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 28:10 Wes rejects industry standard reduction clauses
In an otherwise fully collaborative episode, Wes passionately denounces the predatory reduction clauses in standard athletic contracts that penalize female athletes for giving birth.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 40:05 Guy questions industry claims on women's shoe designsGuy asks for clarification when Allyson notes that women's shoes aren't actually made for women, pressing for an explanation of what the standard footwear wall in retail actually represents.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 39:58 Allyson reveals athletic shoes are built on male lastsAllyson shocks Guy by revealing that women's athletic footwear is universally built on male lasts and merely color-marketed toward women rather than anatomically engineered for them.
Guy holds their own ▶ 46:50 Guy analyzes the strategic transition from endorsement to brand equityGuy provides a sharp business analysis, synthesizing how moving away from personal endorsement deals into brand ownership insulated and elevated Wes and Allyson's enterprise.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Early Track Careers and Allyson Turning Pro | 5 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy Raz demonstrates strong background knowledge of Allyson's unconventional decision to bypass collegiate track for an Adidas pro contract ahead of the 2004 Athens Olympics. Allyson elaborates on the context of NCAA point systems versus Olympic preparation. | |
| Wes's Professional Career and Medical Diagnosis | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Guy prompts Wes about his college career at USC and his transition away from professional running due to illness. Wes explains the liver virus diagnosis that ended his competitive running career. | |
| Partnering Up: Wes Becomes Allyson's Manager | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy traces Allyson's college years and asks Wes how he transitioned into representation. Wes shares the backstory of writing a formal pitch letter to Allyson proposing to manage her non-apparel sponsorships. | |
| Learning the Sports Agency Business from Jill Smoller | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guy highlights Wes's cold outreach to Jill Smoller as a savvy move. Wes details the industry lessons Smoller taught him regarding humility and pricing asymmetry in talent representation. | |
| London 2012 Gold and a Shift in Mindset | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy notes Allyson's move to Nike and her 2012 Olympic gold in London. Allyson reflects on the unexpected anti-climax of winning gold and shifting her philosophy toward the overall journey. | |
| The Traditional Athlete Sponsorship Playbook | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guy frames how corporate renegotiations function coldly regardless of personal loyalty or legacy. Allyson explains the shock of receiving a 70% pay cut offer right after setting World Championship records. | |
| Secret Pregnancy, Traumatic Birth, and Postpartum Recovery | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guy connects with Allyson's medical ordeal through his own family's experience with preeclampsia. Allyson details hiding her pregnancy while training at 4 AM to protect potential contract terms. | |
| Fighting for Maternal Protections in Nike Negotiations | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Wes explains the specific mechanics of sports contracts that punish postpartum athletes with performance reductions. The dynamic remains conversational with Wes educating the listener on contract penalty clauses. | |
| Publishing the New York Times Op-Ed | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy explores the emotional courage required to publish the New York Times op-ed against Nike. Allyson and Wes explain the tipping point and the tension of receiving an unchanged contract via DocuSign minutes before publication. | |
| Mid-Show Break: The Birth of Saysh | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy asks about the pivot from athlete sponsorships to founding their own shoe company. Allyson explains signing with Athleta and Wes shares how an offhand Lego session sparked the idea to build Saysh. | |
| Designing Shoes for Women and Discovering the Industry Standard | 3 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Guy expresses genuine surprise when hearing that mainstream women's athletic shoes are built on molds of men's feet. Allyson and Wes educate Guy on the shoe industry's standard practice of 'shrink it and pink it' marketing. | |
| Assembling the Team to Build an Olympic Spike | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Wes explains how former Nike veterans like developer Tiffany Beers and master pattern maker Mike Friton rallied to build Allyson's custom Olympic spike for Tokyo. Guy listens attentively as Wes details the craft behind the shoe. | |
| Expanding Saysh and Launching Running Footwear | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Guy summarizes Saysh's Series A fundraising and strategic positioning as a lifestyle brand expanding into dedicated running shoes. Allyson affirms their target customer profile. | |
| Long-Term Vision and Holistic Support for Women | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy highlights the strategic strength of building a brand that outlasts an athlete's personal career. Wes explains Saysh's customer-first policies, including free shoe exchanges for pregnant women whose foot size changes. |
Statements from this episode (16)
Allyson Felix's leap from high school to professional track was unprecedented.
“It was something that in the U.S., to my understanding, no one had done before, and so, you know, people had all their thoughts on it.”
Talent agents must balance executive networking with menial client support tasks.
“What Jill taught me right away was first humility. And she said, you know, there's going to be days you might be on a private plane with the CEO of some big company and there will be days you're going to go and you're going to run and you're going to grab your…”
The primary value of talent agencies is accessing benchmark market pricing data.
“What you don't know is how much other people are getting for that same opportunity. And when she said that it fully clicked and my trust for her, like grew even more. And people would come to me and they're like, you've got the biggest athlete in the sport. Wh…”
Blue-chip sponsorships provide the storytelling infrastructure to create cultural icons.
“If you partner with those companies, you know, they have a similar type of storytelling and that's what allows you to become Mia Hamm, Serena Williams, Michael Jordan. It's the sponsors that do it, you know?”
Nike offered Allyson Felix a 70 percent pay cut during 2017 negotiations.
“I remember when Wes called me, and he told me what it was and the number was 70% less than what I had been making, and I remember just feeling like somebody had just, like, punched me.”
Allyson Felix became the most decorated athlete in World Athletics Championships history.
“And at this point, that World Championships that we just came off of, I think, Wes, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I had become the most decorated athlete at World Championship history.”
Female track athletes routinely concealed pregnancies to avoid sponsor pay cuts.
“Women really struggled through pregnancy and motherhood in track and field, and so what they would do is, if they were like in between contracts, like I was, they would Hide their pregnancies, they would sign new deals, and then they would carry on or contract…”
Nike contracts penalized Allyson Felix 25 percent for missing medals post-pregnancy.
“The way that these contracts are set up. You get a bonus. If you win a medal, you get a reduction if you don't win a medal. So here was going to be Allison, you know, 10 months after giving birth and she would need to go to the world championships. She would n…”
Nike requested Allyson Felix's image for a World Cup ad during disputes.
“The Women's World Cup was coming up, and I remember, like, this very vividly. I was sitting in Cameron's nursery, and I got a call from Wes, and he has, he's like, don't shoot the messenger, but Nike wants to know if they can use your image in this campaign. I…”
Athleta had never sponsored a professional athlete before signing Allyson Felix.
“They actually, they had never sponsored an athlete before.”
Allyson Felix went unpaid for almost two years during her Nike dispute.
“Allison didn't get paid for almost two years, you know, so there was fear and stress around, is this the right thing to do?”
Major athletic brands traditionally construct women's footwear using molds of men's feet.
“A shoe is made off of a lass, which is a mold of a foot, and it's, A man's foot that has been used to make women's footwear.”
Female consumers cannot demand gender-specific footwear without experiencing proper alternatives first.
“Women aren't saying we're unhappy with our shoes. Make one for me. Cause they think they already have one for them and they don't have anything to compare it to. They've never put on a shoe made for a woman.”
Saysh produced the first Olympic gold-winning shoe worn by its brand owner.
“And the first shoe to win a gold medal by an athlete who owns the brand too.”
Saysh specifically targets everyday active women rather than elite marathoners.
“What I'm passionate about is this running shoe, and really giving women something that they haven't felt before, and not for the woman who is, like, trying to, you know, break the marathon world record, because I just don't feel like that is every woman, but, …”
Saysh replaces shoes for free if a customer's foot changes during pregnancy.
“You know, we have a maternity returns policy where if you're a woman who, whose foot changes size while you're pregnant, I can't imagine like all of a sudden waking up and my foot's a different size. And now I need to throw out Every shoe I ever had. So, you k…”