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Apr 13, 2023 · 37m · how-i-built-this

HIBT Lab! New Culture: Matt Gibson and Inja Radman

Guy Raz · 12m spoken Inja Radman · 11m spoken Matt Gibson · 10m spoken
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In this episode of How I Built This Lab, host Guy Raz interviews New Culture co-founders Matt Gibson and Inja Radman about using precision fermentation to engineer animal-free casein. They explore how manufacturing bio-identical mozzarella offers a sustainable solution to the immense carbon footprint of industrial dairy without compromising on taste, melt, or stretch.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 37.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 2.5 Guest teaching 3.3 Guest disagreement 0.6 Guy pushing back 1.0
05100:0010:0020:0030:001:50–4:40 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Finding a Co-Founder on LinkedIn Guy asks open-ended questions about how Matt and Inja connected through LinkedIn. The founders recount their early communication and background in a completely collaborative tone.4:41–8:06 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 The Leap to Silicon Valley and IndieBio Guy inquires about the risk of relocating across the world to join IndieBio with a stranger. Inja explains her transition from biomedical protein engineering to sustainable food science.8:06–11:54 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Why Cheese and the Casein Challenge Guy shares facts regarding the water footprint of cheese and milk solids ratios from his own yogurt-making experience. Inja educates him further on cheese ranking as the third-worst food product for global emissions.12:10–19:33 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Precision Fermentation Science and Mozzarella Focus Guy references his previous conversation with Pat Brown of Impossible Foods to analogize recombinant proteins. Inja details how precision fermentation programs microbes using bovine DNA sequences.19:33–22:02 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Seed Funding, Pandemic Resilience, and Taste Tests Guy assumes the pandemic lockdown provided an ideal quiet window for lab work, but Matt gently corrects him by noting they had no home laboratory equipment and had to pivot entirely to computational planning.22:03–24:19 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 Casein Versus Whey in Animal-Free Dairy Guy asks how New Culture differs from other animal-free dairy competitors. Matt breaks down the scientific distinction between easily expressed whey proteins and complex casein micelle structures required for melting cheese.24:36–29:02 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Restaurant Launch Strategy and Defining Animal-Free Dairy Guy pushes on consumer clarity and regulatory naming challenges regarding whether to label products as cheese. Inja explains why the product must be explicitly categorized as dairy due to identical allergen profiles despite being animal-free and vegan.29:03–36:41 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Scaling Impact, Agribusiness Partnerships, and Future Cheeses Matt reframes Guy's remark about declining dairy demand by pointing out that cheese consumption is actually rising, before discussing commercial partnerships with ADM and Kraft Heinz to scale production.1:50–4:40 · Guest teaching 1/10 Finding a Co-Founder on LinkedIn Guy asks open-ended questions about how Matt and Inja connected through LinkedIn. The founders recount their early communication and background in a completely collaborative tone.4:41–8:06 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Leap to Silicon Valley and IndieBio Guy inquires about the risk of relocating across the world to join IndieBio with a stranger. Inja explains her transition from biomedical protein engineering to sustainable food science.8:06–11:54 · Guest teaching 4/10 Why Cheese and the Casein Challenge Guy shares facts regarding the water footprint of cheese and milk solids ratios from his own yogurt-making experience. Inja educates him further on cheese ranking as the third-worst food product for global emissions.12:10–19:33 · Guest teaching 4/10 Precision Fermentation Science and Mozzarella Focus Guy references his previous conversation with Pat Brown of Impossible Foods to analogize recombinant proteins. Inja details how precision fermentation programs microbes using bovine DNA sequences.19:33–22:02 · Guest teaching 3/10 Seed Funding, Pandemic Resilience, and Taste Tests Guy assumes the pandemic lockdown provided an ideal quiet window for lab work, but Matt gently corrects him by noting they had no home laboratory equipment and had to pivot entirely to computational planning.22:03–24:19 · Guest teaching 5/10 Casein Versus Whey in Animal-Free Dairy Guy asks how New Culture differs from other animal-free dairy competitors. Matt breaks down the scientific distinction between easily expressed whey proteins and complex casein micelle structures required for melting cheese.24:36–29:02 · Guest teaching 4/10 Restaurant Launch Strategy and Defining Animal-Free Dairy Guy pushes on consumer clarity and regulatory naming challenges regarding whether to label products as cheese. Inja explains why the product must be explicitly categorized as dairy due to identical allergen profiles despite being animal-free and vegan.29:03–36:41 · Guest teaching 3/10 Scaling Impact, Agribusiness Partnerships, and Future Cheeses Matt reframes Guy's remark about declining dairy demand by pointing out that cheese consumption is actually rising, before discussing commercial partnerships with ADM and Kraft Heinz to scale production.1:50–4:40 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Finding a Co-Founder on LinkedIn Guy asks open-ended questions about how Matt and Inja connected through LinkedIn. The founders recount their early communication and background in a completely collaborative tone.4:41–8:06 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Leap to Silicon Valley and IndieBio Guy inquires about the risk of relocating across the world to join IndieBio with a stranger. Inja explains her transition from biomedical protein engineering to sustainable food science.8:06–11:54 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Why Cheese and the Casein Challenge Guy shares facts regarding the water footprint of cheese and milk solids ratios from his own yogurt-making experience. Inja educates him further on cheese ranking as the third-worst food product for global emissions.12:10–19:33 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Precision Fermentation Science and Mozzarella Focus Guy references his previous conversation with Pat Brown of Impossible Foods to analogize recombinant proteins. Inja details how precision fermentation programs microbes using bovine DNA sequences.19:33–22:02 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Seed Funding, Pandemic Resilience, and Taste Tests Guy assumes the pandemic lockdown provided an ideal quiet window for lab work, but Matt gently corrects him by noting they had no home laboratory equipment and had to pivot entirely to computational planning.22:03–24:19 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Casein Versus Whey in Animal-Free Dairy Guy asks how New Culture differs from other animal-free dairy competitors. Matt breaks down the scientific distinction between easily expressed whey proteins and complex casein micelle structures required for melting cheese.24:36–29:02 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Restaurant Launch Strategy and Defining Animal-Free Dairy Guy pushes on consumer clarity and regulatory naming challenges regarding whether to label products as cheese. Inja explains why the product must be explicitly categorized as dairy due to identical allergen profiles despite being animal-free and vegan.29:03–36:41 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Scaling Impact, Agribusiness Partnerships, and Future Cheeses Matt reframes Guy's remark about declining dairy demand by pointing out that cheese consumption is actually rising, before discussing commercial partnerships with ADM and Kraft Heinz to scale production.1:50–4:40 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Finding a Co-Founder on LinkedIn Guy asks open-ended questions about how Matt and Inja connected through LinkedIn. The founders recount their early communication and background in a completely collaborative tone.4:41–8:06 · Guy pushing back 1/10 The Leap to Silicon Valley and IndieBio Guy inquires about the risk of relocating across the world to join IndieBio with a stranger. Inja explains her transition from biomedical protein engineering to sustainable food science.8:06–11:54 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Why Cheese and the Casein Challenge Guy shares facts regarding the water footprint of cheese and milk solids ratios from his own yogurt-making experience. Inja educates him further on cheese ranking as the third-worst food product for global emissions.12:10–19:33 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Precision Fermentation Science and Mozzarella Focus Guy references his previous conversation with Pat Brown of Impossible Foods to analogize recombinant proteins. Inja details how precision fermentation programs microbes using bovine DNA sequences.19:33–22:02 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Seed Funding, Pandemic Resilience, and Taste Tests Guy assumes the pandemic lockdown provided an ideal quiet window for lab work, but Matt gently corrects him by noting they had no home laboratory equipment and had to pivot entirely to computational planning.22:03–24:19 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Casein Versus Whey in Animal-Free Dairy Guy asks how New Culture differs from other animal-free dairy competitors. Matt breaks down the scientific distinction between easily expressed whey proteins and complex casein micelle structures required for melting cheese.24:36–29:02 · Guy pushing back 3/10 Restaurant Launch Strategy and Defining Animal-Free Dairy Guy pushes on consumer clarity and regulatory naming challenges regarding whether to label products as cheese. Inja explains why the product must be explicitly categorized as dairy due to identical allergen profiles despite being animal-free and vegan.29:03–36:41 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Scaling Impact, Agribusiness Partnerships, and Future Cheeses Matt reframes Guy's remark about declining dairy demand by pointing out that cheese consumption is actually rising, before discussing commercial partnerships with ADM and Kraft Heinz to scale production.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 70.5% · guest 29.5%0:00 · Guy 70.5% · guest 29.5%3:00 · Guy 27.5% · guest 72.5%3:00 · Guy 27.5% · guest 72.5%6:00 · Guy 26.7% · guest 73.3%6:00 · Guy 26.7% · guest 73.3%9:00 · Guy 30.9% · guest 69.1%9:00 · Guy 30.9% · guest 69.1%12:00 · Guy 55.9% · guest 44.1%12:00 · Guy 55.9% · guest 44.1%15:00 · Guy 21.8% · guest 78.2%15:00 · Guy 21.8% · guest 78.2%18:00 · Guy 26.3% · guest 73.7%18:00 · Guy 26.3% · guest 73.7%21:00 · Guy 38.5% · guest 61.5%21:00 · Guy 38.5% · guest 61.5%24:00 · Guy 53.4% · guest 46.6%24:00 · Guy 53.4% · guest 46.6%27:00 · Guy 35.7% · guest 64.3%27:00 · Guy 35.7% · guest 64.3%30:00 · Guy 30.9% · guest 69.1%30:00 · Guy 30.9% · guest 69.1%33:00 · Guy 16.6% · guest 83.4%33:00 · Guy 16.6% · guest 83.4%36:00 · Guy 61.5% · guest 38.5%36:00 · Guy 61.5% · guest 38.5%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 27:45 Inja rejecting ambiguous labeling

Inja rejects the idea of quietly blending into plant-based labels, clarifying that their cheese is bio-identical dairy that triggers dairy allergies and therefore requires a precise new categorization.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 27:11 Guy pressing on branding and transparency

Guy challenges the founders on whether calling it 'New Culture cheese' without clear differentiation might mislead or confuse grocery consumers.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 22:45 Matt on casein versus whey biochemistry

Matt educates the host on why competitors stick to whey for ice creams and yogurts, whereas true melting and stretching cheese uniquely requires the complex casein protein.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 14:00 Guy drawing parallels to heme and Impossible Foods

Guy demonstrates domain fluency in alternative proteins by comparing New Culture's recombinant casein synthesis to Pat Brown's use of soy leghemoglobin.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Finding a Co-Founder on LinkedIn 1100 Guy asks open-ended questions about how Matt and Inja connected through LinkedIn. The founders recount their early communication and background in a completely collaborative tone.
The Leap to Silicon Valley and IndieBio 2201 Guy inquires about the risk of relocating across the world to join IndieBio with a stranger. Inja explains her transition from biomedical protein engineering to sustainable food science.
Why Cheese and the Casein Challenge 4401 Guy shares facts regarding the water footprint of cheese and milk solids ratios from his own yogurt-making experience. Inja educates him further on cheese ranking as the third-worst food product for global emissions.
Precision Fermentation Science and Mozzarella Focus 4401 Guy references his previous conversation with Pat Brown of Impossible Foods to analogize recombinant proteins. Inja details how precision fermentation programs microbes using bovine DNA sequences.
Seed Funding, Pandemic Resilience, and Taste Tests 1310 Guy assumes the pandemic lockdown provided an ideal quiet window for lab work, but Matt gently corrects him by noting they had no home laboratory equipment and had to pivot entirely to computational planning.
Casein Versus Whey in Animal-Free Dairy 2511 Guy asks how New Culture differs from other animal-free dairy competitors. Matt breaks down the scientific distinction between easily expressed whey proteins and complex casein micelle structures required for melting cheese.
Restaurant Launch Strategy and Defining Animal-Free Dairy 3423 Guy pushes on consumer clarity and regulatory naming challenges regarding whether to label products as cheese. Inja explains why the product must be explicitly categorized as dairy due to identical allergen profiles despite being animal-free and vegan.
Scaling Impact, Agribusiness Partnerships, and Future Cheeses 3311 Matt reframes Guy's remark about declining dairy demand by pointing out that cheese consumption is actually rising, before discussing commercial partnerships with ADM and Kraft Heinz to scale production.

Statements from this episode (8)

Assertion Partly supported
Radman: Cheese ranks as third worst global food product for environmental impact
“Cheese is the third worst product globally of all food products to produce after beef and lamb.”
Inja Radman Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 10:11
Assertion Supported
Radman: Casein proteins alone give dairy cheese its melt and stretch properties
“Turns out that nature is so smart and miraculous, and it created these casein proteins. So it's a group of proteins that are found only in mammalian milk in nature. And really these proteins directly Are responsible for making cheese cheesy, for making cheese …”
Inja Radman Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 11:05
Opinion
Radman: Precision-fermented casein makes dairy far superior to market alternatives
“You can make any cheese from it, and it goes even further than that. You can make any dairy product in, you know, far superior way than you can make with any other alternative on the market. And you can make any cheese in the world.”
Inja Radman Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 16:55
Disclosure
Gibson: New Culture is all-in on casein with zero hedging
“And from day one at New Culture, we essentially said our focus is cheese, therefore our focus is casein, and we're going to place all our bets on casein. We're not going to give ourselves any outs. We're not going to hedge our bets. We either succeed in casein…”
Matt Gibson Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 23:46
Disclosure
New Culture plans to launch animal-free cheese in select restaurants in 2024
“We are planning to launch our cheese into food service. First of all, into some select restaurants early next year. Really excited for that. We've been lucky to work with really amazing chefs, but the goal is to first launch into restaurants with chefs and the…”
Matt Gibson Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 25:13
Assertion Supported
Dairy-allergic individuals will be equally allergic to New Culture's animal-free cheese
“Our protein is bio-identical to dairy product found in milk, and while that gives it all these beautiful traits and amazing advantages, it also means that, you know, people who are allergic to natural dairy, dairy from animal milk, will be equally allergic to …”
Inja Radman Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 28:11
Assertion Partly supported
Gibson: Cheese consumption is rising despite broader dairy decline
“Cheese has actually bucked that trend and is increasing.”
Matt Gibson Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 29:39
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Gibson: Precision fermentation foods will become the norm in a few years
“Precision fermentation powered food products are going to become the norm in a few years time”
Matt Gibson Apr 13, 2023 ▶ 32:11
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