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Nov 24, 2022 · 18m · top-founders

Imagine doing $6.1m in revenue helping Loom, Dropbox, and G2 break $100m in ARR

Eli Rubel · 10m spoken Nathan Latka · 5m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of Conversations with Nathan Latka, growth advisor and MatterMade founder Eli Rubel details his journey from SaaS founder to running a multi-million-dollar demand generation agency for unicorns like Loom and Dropbox. Rubel breaks down his Demand Efficiency framework, agency economics, capital preservation strategies, and the productization of creative services.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 35.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.2 Guest teaching 3.8 Guest disagreement 2.0 Nathan pushing back 3.0
05100:0010:001:13–4:24 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Welcome and Early Growth Scaling at Loom Nathan demonstrates familiarity with Loom's founding journey, virality coefficient, and waitlist metrics before drilling Eli on the exact lifecycle stage MatterMade entered. Eli collaboratively explains their role in building early growth foundations for Series A and B startups.4:25–8:44 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 The Demand Efficiency Framework and Buyer Journey Optimization Nathan attempts to pin Eli down with a hypothetical CAC optimization calculation, but Eli rejects the simplistic premise. Eli educates Nathan on the Demand Efficiency framework, detailing how unaddressed gaps between marketing and sales destroy conversion efficiency.8:46–11:32 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Deconstructing Tech Stack Traps in SaaS Growth When asked for shiny tech stack recommendations, Eli pushes back against overinvesting in tooling before mapping buyer journeys. Nathan then pivots to dissecting Eli's prior venture exit at Glider, applying his own experience with liquidation preferences to parse the deal math.11:34–16:12 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 The E-Commerce Detour and Strategic QSBS Rollover Nathan evaluates the unit economics of Eli's e-commerce detour and live-calculates MatterMade's agency revenue, margins, and headcount shifts. Eli shares strategic tax insights regarding QSBS rollovers and explains his performance-based retainer pricing.16:14–17:59 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Productizing Creative Services with NoBoringDesign Nathan playfully nudges Eli about when he will launch another SaaS product before Eli introduces his productized design agency spin-off, NoBoringDesign. The segment concludes with standard, rapid-fire Famous Five questions.1:13–4:24 · Guest teaching 3/10 Welcome and Early Growth Scaling at Loom Nathan demonstrates familiarity with Loom's founding journey, virality coefficient, and waitlist metrics before drilling Eli on the exact lifecycle stage MatterMade entered. Eli collaboratively explains their role in building early growth foundations for Series A and B startups.4:25–8:44 · Guest teaching 8/10 The Demand Efficiency Framework and Buyer Journey Optimization Nathan attempts to pin Eli down with a hypothetical CAC optimization calculation, but Eli rejects the simplistic premise. Eli educates Nathan on the Demand Efficiency framework, detailing how unaddressed gaps between marketing and sales destroy conversion efficiency.8:46–11:32 · Guest teaching 4/10 Deconstructing Tech Stack Traps in SaaS Growth When asked for shiny tech stack recommendations, Eli pushes back against overinvesting in tooling before mapping buyer journeys. Nathan then pivots to dissecting Eli's prior venture exit at Glider, applying his own experience with liquidation preferences to parse the deal math.11:34–16:12 · Guest teaching 3/10 The E-Commerce Detour and Strategic QSBS Rollover Nathan evaluates the unit economics of Eli's e-commerce detour and live-calculates MatterMade's agency revenue, margins, and headcount shifts. Eli shares strategic tax insights regarding QSBS rollovers and explains his performance-based retainer pricing.16:14–17:59 · Guest teaching 1/10 Productizing Creative Services with NoBoringDesign Nathan playfully nudges Eli about when he will launch another SaaS product before Eli introduces his productized design agency spin-off, NoBoringDesign. The segment concludes with standard, rapid-fire Famous Five questions.1:13–4:24 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Welcome and Early Growth Scaling at Loom Nathan demonstrates familiarity with Loom's founding journey, virality coefficient, and waitlist metrics before drilling Eli on the exact lifecycle stage MatterMade entered. Eli collaboratively explains their role in building early growth foundations for Series A and B startups.4:25–8:44 · Guest disagreement 4/10 The Demand Efficiency Framework and Buyer Journey Optimization Nathan attempts to pin Eli down with a hypothetical CAC optimization calculation, but Eli rejects the simplistic premise. Eli educates Nathan on the Demand Efficiency framework, detailing how unaddressed gaps between marketing and sales destroy conversion efficiency.8:46–11:32 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Deconstructing Tech Stack Traps in SaaS Growth When asked for shiny tech stack recommendations, Eli pushes back against overinvesting in tooling before mapping buyer journeys. Nathan then pivots to dissecting Eli's prior venture exit at Glider, applying his own experience with liquidation preferences to parse the deal math.11:34–16:12 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The E-Commerce Detour and Strategic QSBS Rollover Nathan evaluates the unit economics of Eli's e-commerce detour and live-calculates MatterMade's agency revenue, margins, and headcount shifts. Eli shares strategic tax insights regarding QSBS rollovers and explains his performance-based retainer pricing.16:14–17:59 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Productizing Creative Services with NoBoringDesign Nathan playfully nudges Eli about when he will launch another SaaS product before Eli introduces his productized design agency spin-off, NoBoringDesign. The segment concludes with standard, rapid-fire Famous Five questions.1:13–4:24 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Welcome and Early Growth Scaling at Loom Nathan demonstrates familiarity with Loom's founding journey, virality coefficient, and waitlist metrics before drilling Eli on the exact lifecycle stage MatterMade entered. Eli collaboratively explains their role in building early growth foundations for Series A and B startups.4:25–8:44 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 The Demand Efficiency Framework and Buyer Journey Optimization Nathan attempts to pin Eli down with a hypothetical CAC optimization calculation, but Eli rejects the simplistic premise. Eli educates Nathan on the Demand Efficiency framework, detailing how unaddressed gaps between marketing and sales destroy conversion efficiency.8:46–11:32 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Deconstructing Tech Stack Traps in SaaS Growth When asked for shiny tech stack recommendations, Eli pushes back against overinvesting in tooling before mapping buyer journeys. Nathan then pivots to dissecting Eli's prior venture exit at Glider, applying his own experience with liquidation preferences to parse the deal math.11:34–16:12 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 The E-Commerce Detour and Strategic QSBS Rollover Nathan evaluates the unit economics of Eli's e-commerce detour and live-calculates MatterMade's agency revenue, margins, and headcount shifts. Eli shares strategic tax insights regarding QSBS rollovers and explains his performance-based retainer pricing.16:14–17:59 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Productizing Creative Services with NoBoringDesign Nathan playfully nudges Eli about when he will launch another SaaS product before Eli introduces his productized design agency spin-off, NoBoringDesign. The segment concludes with standard, rapid-fire Famous Five questions.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 70.4% · guest 29.6%0:00 · Nathan 70.4% · guest 29.6%3:00 · Nathan 29.7% · guest 70.3%3:00 · Nathan 29.7% · guest 70.3%6:00 · Nathan 11.1% · guest 88.9%6:00 · Nathan 11.1% · guest 88.9%9:00 · Nathan 24.5% · guest 75.5%9:00 · Nathan 24.5% · guest 75.5%12:00 · Nathan 26.5% · guest 73.5%12:00 · Nathan 26.5% · guest 73.5%15:00 · Nathan 38.4% · guest 61.6%15:00 · Nathan 38.4% · guest 61.6%18:00 · Nathan 98.1% · guest 1.9%18:00 · Nathan 98.1% · guest 1.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 5:20 Premise Rejection on Arbitrary CAC Targets

Eli openly refuses Nathan's prompt to give a quick target number for a hypothetical SaaS customer, arguing that isolated CAC targets ignore the broader growth engine.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 11:08 Nathan Pushes on Exit Returns and Equity Split

Nathan refuses to let Eli brush off Glider's $3M sale without clarifying how a founder walks away with a seven-figure payout after raising $1.2M in venture capital.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:15 Diagnosing the Marketing-to-Sales Disconnect

Eli systematically illustrates how misaligned TAM scoping and clumsy SDR handoffs ruin warm marketing funnels, giving Nathan a masterclass in full-funnel demand efficiency.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 10:22 Nathan References Personal Tax Filings and VC Math

Nathan brings his own founder exit history and liquidation preference dynamics to accurately contextualize why early small exits frequently return zero dollars to founders.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Welcome and Early Growth Scaling at Loom 6313 Nathan demonstrates familiarity with Loom's founding journey, virality coefficient, and waitlist metrics before drilling Eli on the exact lifecycle stage MatterMade entered. Eli collaboratively explains their role in building early growth foundations for Series A and B startups.
The Demand Efficiency Framework and Buyer Journey Optimization 5844 Nathan attempts to pin Eli down with a hypothetical CAC optimization calculation, but Eli rejects the simplistic premise. Eli educates Nathan on the Demand Efficiency framework, detailing how unaddressed gaps between marketing and sales destroy conversion efficiency.
Deconstructing Tech Stack Traps in SaaS Growth 6433 When asked for shiny tech stack recommendations, Eli pushes back against overinvesting in tooling before mapping buyer journeys. Nathan then pivots to dissecting Eli's prior venture exit at Glider, applying his own experience with liquidation preferences to parse the deal math.
The E-Commerce Detour and Strategic QSBS Rollover 6313 Nathan evaluates the unit economics of Eli's e-commerce detour and live-calculates MatterMade's agency revenue, margins, and headcount shifts. Eli shares strategic tax insights regarding QSBS rollovers and explains his performance-based retainer pricing.
Productizing Creative Services with NoBoringDesign 3112 Nathan playfully nudges Eli about when he will launch another SaaS product before Eli introduces his productized design agency spin-off, NoBoringDesign. The segment concludes with standard, rapid-fire Famous Five questions.

Statements from this episode (14)

Disclosure
MatterMade helped Loom scale demand post-Series A through high-intent channels
“Yeah, this would be post revenue. So this was essentially when I think they had raised a series A at this point. And they were trying to figure out how to cast a wider net. Like their goal was to increase work user signups efficiently. And so we launched this …”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 2:01
Assertion Not checkable as stated
MatterMade helps grow more than 10 unicorn companies per year
“And so we're able to come in and be that senior strategy layer that's, you know, helped grow 10 plus unicorns a year.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 3:07
Insight
Enterprise SaaS engagements should focus on pipeline generation over immediate revenue
“And if it's an enterprise sales product, we're not going to be focused on revenue because their sales cycles might be six to nine months. We'll be focused on like quality pipe gen where the sales reps are saying, yes, these are really great conversations we're…”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 3:50
Insight
Budget-strapped startups must target a narrow TAM segment to ensure frequency
“But the reality is that if your budget is strapped, you need to focus on a specific segment of your TAM. You can't just try to boil the ocean or you can, but it's going to be way less effective because you might only be able to get your impression in front of …”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 7:40
Insight
Early-stage sales teams often erase marketing gains by ignoring buyer context
“A lot of time, early stage companies will have a complex buyer journey that they've done a really good job. Like the marketers have done a great job. Teeing up this person to talk to sales and then sales will have no idea of all that historical context and the…”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 8:06
Disclosure
Eli Rubel sold his first SaaS startup Glider for $3 million
“I founded a SaaS company before that. It was venture backed. Sold that in 2014. Acquired. Glider.com. We did contract lifecycle management. I raised like 1.4, 1.7, something like that. We acquired really early. sold the company for three million dollars.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 10:01
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Rubel scaled an acquired e-commerce business from $20K to $300K MRR
“So I bought it. They were doing like 20 K a month. I got it up to, I think it was like 250 K, 300 K a month in Rev.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 12:14
Disclosure
Rubel bought an e-commerce business to extend his QSBS tax exemption
“Buying this business allowed me to extend my QSBS exemption from Glider. So I ended up like the money that I get on that position was really just in the tax savings from rolling the proceeds.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 13:15
Disclosure
MatterMade generated approximately $900K in revenue during its first year
“First year revenue in Mattermade was probably, it was like nine, 900 K, something like that.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 13:43
Disclosure
MatterMade charged a massive $45K monthly retainer for all 2021 clients
“No, no, we were 45 K a month all of last year across all of our clients.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 15:01
Disclosure
MatterMade generated $6.1 million in top-line revenue during 2021
“I mean, we did we did 6.1 top line last year”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 15:58
Disclosure
MatterMade downsized from 37 employees in 2022 amid a revenue decline
“We'll be lower this year. Yeah. I mean, we were 37 employees earlier in the year. We had to downsize.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 16:06
Assertion Supported
MatterMade's creative team manages design work for Dropbox and Yelp
“We have this amazing design team. Like they're doing design for Dropbox and Yelp and like really high profile clients of ours.”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 16:24
Disclosure
Rubel spun off MatterMade's design team into a $2,500 monthly subscription
“But I was like, you know what, let me spin off our design team and have it be Start at 2500 a month, get design exactly when you need it, not be held up waiting for the product designer to ship your, you know, marketing assets, that sort of thing, or brand ass…”
Eli Rubel Nov 24, 2022 ▶ 16:49
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