Oct 21, 2019 · 1h 20m · how-i-built-this
Gimlet Media: Alex Blumberg and Matt Lieber
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Host Guy Raz interviews Gimlet Media co-founders Alex Blumberg and Matt Lieber on how they turned narrative audio into a venture-backed podcast powerhouse that was acquired by Spotify for over $230 million. The episode chronicles their public radio origins, vulnerable fundraising journey, operational scaling, and reflections on entrepreneurship.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 31.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 2.2 Guest teaching 1.3 Guest disagreement 0.4 Guy pushing back 0.2
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 48:25 Matt Lieber rejects Alex Blumberg's low equity offer
Matt forcefully recounts refusing Alex's initial low equity offer, pointing out that treating it as an employee job would doom the company's success.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 1:08:43 Guy Raz challenges Alex Blumberg on corporate buzzwordsGuy Raz humorously calls out Alex for using the word 'synergy', pointing out he would have been ridiculed for using that corporate jargon in public radio.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 55:10 Matt Lieber explains podcast business economicsMatt educates the host on how individual podcasts function as mini-businesses that initially lose money before audience growth enables profitability.
Guy holds their own ▶ 14:04 Guy Raz demonstrates institutional memory of public radioGuy immediately identifies the title and impact of Alex's very first produced episode at This American Life about Harold Washington.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Live Show Announcement: Denver Paramount Theater | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Host monologue introducing the live show, providing background context on public radio and podcasting, and setting up the Gimlet story. | |
| Alex Blumberg's Early Life and Creative Awakening | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Guy prompts Alex about his upbringing, parents' entrepreneurial background, and his early teaching career. Alex shares personal reflections in a cooperative narrative style. | |
| Learning Radio Storytelling at This American Life | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Alex discusses breaking into This American Life and learning from Ira Glass. Guy shows familiarity with the specific early episode Alex produced. | |
| Matt Lieber's Radio Beginnings and 9/11 Reporting | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Matt Lieber recounts his early radio journey, failed internship application, and his 9/11 street reporting in Brooklyn. Guy playfully teases Alex about discarding Matt's internship application. | |
| Matt Lieber's Career Doubts and Pivot to Business School | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Matt explains his transition from public radio instability to business school. Guy explores whether Matt went to business school to become an entrepreneur or consultant. | |
| Co-Creating Planet Money and Spotting Commercial Audio Potential | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Alex recounts the inception of Planet Money and recognizing the financial value in podcasting. Guy connects Alex's experience to his own launch of TED Radio Hour during the same era. | |
| Ted Koppel Dream and the Decision to Quit NPR | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Alex discusses why NPR could not take the risk on his venture and recounts his famous dream involving Ted Koppel. Guy prompts Alex on the fear and magnitude of leaving a stable career at age 47. | |
| Documenting Investor Rejections on the Startup Podcast | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Alex details the humiliation of early VC pitches and recording them for the Startup podcast. Guy highlights iconic moments like the Chris Sacca pitch from the Startup series. | |
| Partnering with Matt Lieber and Negotiating Equity | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | Matt and Alex recount their initial equity negotiation and how Matt demanded near-parity rather than single-digit equity. Guy prompts them on the tension of negotiating equity on tape. | |
| Naming Gimlet Media and Building Company Infrastructure | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Alex and Matt describe hiring branding consultants for the Gimlet name and scaling company operations. Matt corrects the assumption that they ran out of money, clarifying they chose to accelerate growth. | |
| Navigating Public Radio Skepticism and Management Growing Pains | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | The guests recount facing skepticism from legacy public radio stations and managing creative teams. Guy asks about the challenge of managing intelligent, stubborn creative people. | |
| The Spotify Acquisition and Impact of Wealth | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Matt and Alex explain the strategic rationale behind selling Gimlet to Spotify for discovery and data. Guy teases Alex about using corporate jargon like 'synergy.' | |
| Reflections on Luck, Privilege, and Paying It Forward | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Guy asks the standard reflection question on skill versus luck. Matt highlights privilege and timing, while Alex playfully discovers Matt has been making secret angel investments. | |
| NPR Program Promo: It's Been a Minute with Regina King | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Promo segment for 'It's Been a Minute' followed by the 'How You Built That' interview with Dr. Casey Kerrigan about OESH shoes. |
Statements from this episode (16)
Blumberg: Early This American Life Ran on Ira Glass and Three Producers
“And being the administrative assistant at This American Life, it was, like, Ira and three producers, and they were trying to get out an hour of, like, highly produced radio every single week, and they were just, like, completely up to their necks in work, and …”
Lieber: Many of the world's most popular podcasts use This American Life's sound
“Which is funny, because now, like, a significant portion of the most popular podcasts on earth are this sound, but at the time, it was really weird.”
Blumberg: Planet Money Sold 20,000 T-Shirts and Raised Nearly $600,000
“We sold, like, 20,000 t-shirts. We made, like, almost 600,000 dollars.”
Blumberg: Successful Podcasts Should Be For-Profit Rather Than Non-Profit
“With planet money, I was like, no, there's, you can turn a profit on planet money. That's like advertisers want to be in that show. The audience is big enough. It can be profitable. And if it can, it should be. It doesn't make sense to force it into a structur…”
Blumberg: Media founders undervalue institutional support behind their success
“I think I was a risky venture. You know, like, there's not that many places that are set up to, like, take that kind of risk. Even though I didn't feel like a risk, even though I felt like, well, I know how to do this, and, like, obviously I've done it before,…”
Blumberg: NPR was sitting on financial gold with Planet Money
“I felt like we were sitting on gold. I felt like we, they recognized the editorial gold, but I felt like we were sitting on financial gold with Planet Money, and people love it, and it's brand new, and it's different, and they're consuming it in a different wa…”
Blumberg: Recording the Startup podcast was originally a marketing ploy
“So I had to do something that was going to attract attention to what we were doing, and I figured, like, okay, a guy recording himself trying to start a company. That'll be good. It was like a marketing ploy.”
Blumberg: No investors offered funding until Matt Lieber joined Gimlet
“Nobody was offering me money until, I literally, nobody, I don't think anybody offered money until Matt and I teamed up. I think when I was doing it by myself, I didn't even get to that point.”
Lieber: Every new medium produces new defining media companies
“Every time a new medium comes about, New media companies get built. This is true across the last, you know, hundred years of history, and I thought someone will build a defining media company around on-demand digital audio”
Blumberg: Initially offered co-founder Matt Lieber only 1% to 10% equity
“I think it was, I think I said in the range of one to 10. I'm key to the success of the company, and I want to feel I want to feel that that is reflected in the cap table, I guess.”
Lieber: Gimlet initially planned to reach profitability on its $1.5M seed round
“Well, when we raised the first million and a half dollars of financing, our plan was that that would take us through to profitability, and then we would fund our growth through profits.”
Lieber: Each podcast functions as an individual business requiring upfront investment
“Because the way the podcasts work is you launch a podcast, and when you launch it has an audience of zero. But you have to pay the people to make the podcast, and they're going to work for you for a few months before you're able to launch. And then once the po…”
Lieber: Three major public radio stations passed on investing in Gimlet
“When we first started the company, when we were out pitching to raise money, we pitched the company to probably three of the biggest public radio stations. And none of them invested.”
Lieber: Podcasting needed better discovery and analytics to reach full potential
“There were two, like, Basically, industry-level challenges that we were confronting along with every other podcast company, and one was audiences are still having a really hard time discovering new podcasts. Like, if you ask people how they find out new podcas…”
Lieber: Wealth from selling Gimlet didn't bring happiness, but brought safety
“Well, I'm really f***ing rich, and it turns out money doesn't make you happy. But it does make you safe.”
Matt Lieber: Gimlet's Success Came Primarily From Luck, Privilege, and Timing
“I think it's mostly luck but not in the obvious way. Like, I think I think for me it was the luck of, like, being born into the family I was born into at the time that I was. So I had the luck of being in a family where my parents sent me, like, paid for my co…”