Jul 28, 2022 · 40m · how-i-built-this
HIBT Lab! IDEO: David Kelley
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of How I Built This Lab, IDEO founder and Stanford d.school creator David Kelley joins Guy Raz to discuss the evolution of human-centered design, the power of multidisciplinary collaboration, and practical methods for unlocking creative confidence across organizations.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 37.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 0.3 Guy pushing back 0.6
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 10:07 Kelley pushes back against characterizing Jobs as a pain in the ass
Kelley firmly yet politely rejects Guy's reductive framing of Steve Jobs by citing Jobs' compassionate personal visit while Kelley was undergoing cancer treatment.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 9:08 Guy teasingly challenges the mythos around Steve JobsGuy presses Kelley on Steve Jobs' notorious demanding nature, bluntly translating Kelley's diplomatic praise as calling him a pain in the ass.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 34:16 Kelley explains idea meritocracy versus consensusKelley directly answers Guy's question about design thinking by explaining that true innovation requires unavoidable friction and rigorous critique rather than polite consensus.
Guy holds their own ▶ 11:09 Guy demonstrates deep design history knowledge of the Enorme phoneGuy initiates a detailed discussion about the niche Enorme telephone designed with Ettore Sottsass, citing its specific visual aesthetic and MoMA permanent collection status.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Transitioning to Stanford and Launching David Kelley Design | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guy prompts David Kelley to reflect on his career transition from Boeing to Stanford's product design program. Kelley cordially explains how the Stanford curriculum shifted the focus of design from pure aesthetics to human-centered problem solving. | |
| Designing the Apple Mouse and Collaborating with Steve Jobs | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Guy explores Kelley's relationship with Steve Jobs and characterizes Jobs as a pain in the ass. Kelley gently counters Guy's framing by sharing an emotional personal anecdote about Jobs visiting him during his cancer battle to gift him an iPhone. | |
| The Enorme Telephone and Museum of Modern Art Recognition | 6 | 3 | 0 | 1 | Guy demonstrates detailed knowledge of the iconic Enorme telephone and its inclusion in MoMA. Kelley details the backstory with Ettore Sottsass, candidly admitting the phone was a commercial failure despite its high-design status. | |
| Forming IDEO and Cultivating Multidisciplinary Innovation Teams | 5 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guy highlights IDEO's multidisciplinary hiring philosophy and tangible hits like the squishy toothbrush handle. Kelley emphasizes how cross-domain exposure allows designers to apply common practices across diverse industries seamlessly. | |
| The Nightline Experiment and Establishing a Flat Hierarchy | 6 | 3 | 0 | 1 | Guy cites the landmark 1999 ABC Nightline episode documenting IDEO's shopping cart sprint and notes how radical its flat hierarchy was. Kelley explains needfinding and the intentional strategy to democratize idea generation. | |
| Rapid Prototyping and Discovering Adjacent Breakthrough Innovations | 5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Guy asks about project workflow and mentions the spiral Nerf-style football. Kelley details how attempting to design a kicking stand accidentally led to the breakthrough innovation of a self-spiraling ball. | |
| Unlocking Creative Confidence Through Guided Mastery | 5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Guy bridges entrepreneurial mindset with design thinking and asks how innate creativity is unlocked. Kelley introduces the concept of guided mastery through a sequence of small, structured successes. | |
| Fostering Corporate Innovation Culture and Granting Permission to Fail | 5 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guy frames the organizational challenge legacy corporations like P&G face against agile startups. Kelley outlines how creating low-stakes prototype environments gives employees psychological permission to fail. | |
| Transforming Education: Innova Schools in Peru | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Guy inquires about consulting challenges and non-profit constraints. Kelley provides an in-depth case study of creating Innova Schools in Peru, detailing curriculum design and scaled educational impact. | |
| Constructive Conflict, Idea Meritocracy, and Future Design Trends | 5 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Guy probes whether design thinking relies on consensus and how modern workplace values affect the methodology. Kelley clarifies that innovation depends on idea meritocracy and constructive friction rather than consensus. | |
| Entrepreneurial Advice and Episode Conclusion | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy requests practical advice for solo and micro-entrepreneurs trying to adopt a design mindset. Kelley recommends deliberately seeking diverse perspectives to escape isolated thinking before Guy concludes the interview. |
Statements from this episode (13)
Kelley: Designed the Boeing 747 lavatory occupied sign early in career
“Well, the sign that I had responsible for happens to be one we all know well, which was the lavatory occupied sign.”
Kelley: Moving seats on Boeing planes required redrawing entire aircraft blueprints
“Every time they move a seat on the plane, the drawings for that plane has to be completely redone.”
Kelley: David Kelley Design created Apple's first mouse
“We got early involved in Apple and did the first mouse for them and many other products.”
Kelley: IDEO Predecessor Designed Around 50 Products for Apple
“And we ended up doing like 50 products for him, and Steve became a close friend and, you know, introduced me to my wife and couldn't have been closer to him. It was really that initial connection to Apple for IDEO, was called David Kelly Design at the time, th…”
Kelley: Steve Jobs Was the World's Best Client for Designers
“Everyone would tell you who was a designer of any kind that in their career they did their best work for Steve. He was the world's best client because he cared so much.”
Kelley: The Enorme Phone Failed Commercially Despite Widespread Acclaim
“But neither of us were much of a business person, and so we designed this phone and had them produced, but it just, as beautiful as it was, it appealed to designers, and so it sold to designers, but it wasn't functional enough to be a big hit, because AT&T was…”
David Kelley: IDEO handles 400 to 500 projects annually across industries
“You know, you have four or 500 projects going in a year. You know, you work across all kinds of different domains and industries, and in some ways, that's what makes you better.”
David Kelley: Designers look like geniuses by transferring methods across industries
“One of the tools that a designer has is that they have had a broad experience, and you can apply something that seems pretty straightforward as a methodology in doing things in one industry, and bring it to another industry and look like a genius, and all you'…”
Kelley: Corporate America lacks patience because early answers look smart
“Patience to wait for the big idea is just not inherent. Well, it's inherent in the design kind of way of being, but it's not inherent in corporate America because you look smart if you have the answer early on.”
Kelley: Breakthrough innovations frequently lie adjacent to the original problem
“Really happens a lot in design where you think you're working on one thing, but the real innovation is adjacent to that, and you pivot to the place where the real innovation is, and that's what happened in this case, and it has happened to a hundred times.”
Kelley: Guided mastery through small successes is the only way to unlock creativity
“And so what we tend to do, which we try to convince companies to do, this management of companies and ourselves, is to convince people that they have that inherent creativity is what we call guided mastery. If you can take the people in your group and lead the…”