Apr 23, 2025 · 1h 41m · bigdeal
Number 1 Communication Expert: Stop Doing This… People Will Like You More | Jefferson Fisher
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In this episode of The Big Deal Podcast, host Codie Sanchez interviews trial attorney and bestselling author Jefferson Fisher on mastering high-performance communication, de-escalating conflict, and regulating emotions under pressure. Fisher shares actionable frameworks for disarming bullies, refining conversational pacing, delivering candid feedback, and fostering resilient personal and professional relationships.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Codie holds 29.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Codie as informed peer 3.8 Guest teaching 4.5 Guest disagreement 1.0 Codie pushing back 1.0
speaking balance: gold is Codie, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 5:24 Rejecting conventional curiosity advice
Jefferson pushes back against standard communication doctrine, arguing that getting curious about toxic behavior is overused and that people should simply have fewer opinions.
Hardest push from Codie ▶ 31:40 Challenging adult victimhood framingCodie rejects the premise that functional adults should label workplace conflict as bullying, arguing it cedes power to the aggressor.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 1:27:30 Dismantling the compliment sandwich techniqueJefferson clearly educates on why soft-pedaling hard news with flattery destroys credibility, giving the exact phrasing formula to deliver difficult truths effectively.
Codie holds their own ▶ 31:09 Citing bullying research statisticsCodie demonstrates preparation and domain research by contrasting Boys and Girls Club youth bullying figures against unexpected adult survey numbers.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Codie as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Codie pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Episode Preview and Core Communication Principles | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Codie opens the interview sharing her background working in mental health and Rule 11 competency court. Jefferson explains how trial attorneys adopt costumes and persona shifts during litigation. The rapport is warm and collaborative. | |
| Deflecting Hostility and Choosing Fewer Opinions | 4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | Codie connects Jefferson's responses to framing and power dynamics. Jefferson gently reframes common communication advice regarding curiosity, arguing that one does not need to be curious about toxic behavior. | |
| Economy of Words and Avoiding the Urge to Yell | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie introduces insights from her interview with author Robert Greene on human nature and the 48 Laws of Power. Jefferson details why raising one's voice constantly destroys baseline calibration. | |
| Knowing When to Stand Up and the Power of Silence | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie summarizes courtroom dynamics as communication poker. Jefferson educates her on how juries perceive attorney reactions during cross-examinations and evidentiary objections. | |
| Marital Communication Tactics and Conversational Traps | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie shares personal experiences with conversational mirroring tactics used in her marriage. Jefferson demonstrates how short declarative statements function far better than questions in cross-examination and argument resolution. | |
| Unmet Primal Needs as the Root of Irritability | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie compares recovery metrics between Oura rings and Whoop bands to emotional self-awareness. Jefferson introduces the practical phrase 'I can tell' to articulate emotional states without reactivity. | |
| Physical Activation and Detaching Emotions from Identity | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie shares therapy frameworks regarding physical sensations during fight-or-flight activation. Jefferson explains how separating emotion from identity neutralizes hostile provocations. | |
| Why Workplace Bullying Persists into Adulthood | 5 | 4 | 1 | 3 | Codie brings specific statistical data regarding youth and adult bullying rates, challenging whether adults should accept the bully framing. Jefferson explains the corporate structural realities where bullying thrives. | |
| The Five to Eight Second Silence Strategy Against Insults | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie references snappy Hollywood comebacks from Entourage and asks how to respond to direct insults in real life. Jefferson provides a concrete 3-step formula anchored in five to eight seconds of silence. | |
| Pace, Control, and Profanity in High-Performance Communication | 4 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks how to calibrate delivery so that people take communication seriously. Jefferson breaks down downward voice inflections, ending sentences with eye contact, and cutting filler words. | |
| Calm Leadership Energy in Chaos | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks how leaders can maintain calm energy when they naturally feel elevated and anxious inside. Jefferson highlights breath control as the physiological anchor before speaking. | |
| Parallels to High-Stakes Negotiation and Difficult Conversations | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie compares Jefferson's techniques to Chris Voss's negotiation methodologies and questions generational conversational differences. Jefferson notes how digital transactional communication harms high-stakes interpersonal skills. | |
| Overuse of Narcissism Labels and Objective De-escalation | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie questions whether modern culture over-indexes on labeling every difficult partner or boss a narcissist. Jefferson agrees, noting that people frequently confuse self-preservation with clinical pathology. | |
| Managing Tears and Emotional Release in Arguments | 4 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks for guidance on managing crying during arguments and workplace disputes. Jefferson gives definitive instructions never to apologize for tears and explains how to label them objectively. | |
| Navigating Emotional Displays in Professional Environments | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie shares an employee concept called 'high emotional metabolism' where emotional release quickly passes. Jefferson describes maintaining focus while deposing deeply emotional witnesses. | |
| Warmth, Smiling, and Conversational Resonance | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks whether smiling intentionally alters communication outcomes. Jefferson explains how genuine warmth accelerates dealmaking and introduces the concept of matching people's conversational energy to musical genres. | |
| Likability vs. Competence and Authentic Body Language | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie explains her shift from prioritizing pure competence in finance to appreciating likability. Jefferson illustrates how juries evaluate authenticity and why likability sustains longer cooperation. | |
| The Overlooked Power of Active and Patient Listening | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks why audiences frequently ignore advice on listening. Jefferson explains that people naturally listen only to respond rather than to understand, illustrating the issue with a highway passing lane metaphor. | |
| Dale Carnegie Principles and the Magic of Using Names | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie recalls Dale Carnegie's classic dinner party story about active listening. Jefferson explains why deliberately speaking someone's name acts as an instant psychological bridge. | |
| The Humility to Ask and Learn from High Achievers | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie cites the investment adage about asking for advice to get money and vice versa. Jefferson emphasizes adopting a student-to-master mindset when speaking with high achievers. | |
| Eliminating Compliment Sandwiches and Leading with Hard Truths | 3 | 6 | 2 | 1 | Codie asks what common mistakes people make when approaching difficult discussions. Jefferson firmly rejects the traditional compliment sandwich and demonstrates leading directly with hard news. | |
| Improving Relationship Communication with 'Did You Mean?' | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Codie dissects precise syntax choices for clarifying intentions in relationship texts. Jefferson demonstrates how asking 'Did you mean for that to sound short?' gives grace without personalized accusation. | |
| Having Something to Learn Rather Than Something to Prove | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie shares humorous observations about smooth-talking southern dealmakers who feign ignorance. Jefferson shares his favorite phrase 'maybe so' as a disarming power move. | |
| A Postcard to Young Jefferson and Healing Childhood Burdens | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Codie invites Jefferson to read a postcard to his 10-year-old self. Jefferson delivers a vulnerable reflection on relieving childhood burdens and being the oldest sibling, closing the episode. |
Statements from this episode (34)
Fisher: Trial lawyers adopt aggressive courtroom personas as professional costumes
“I find that a lot of attorneys are nice. They just think that that's what attorneys are supposed to be like. Or do. Or be. So to me, that's, you know, like you put on a suit and tie. That doesn't change who they are. It's also, it's their costume. It's their s…”
Fisher: Staying calm in trials creates leverage by denying opponents an enemy
“Same. So what, and I find it to be a very, a great leverage point because people feel like I don't, I had this one time, I had a, it was a good friend, we were in trial, and this was halfway through, and he goes, man, I hate trying cases with you. I said, what…”
Fisher: Power in communication comes from holding and sharing fewer opinions
“I think the real power is just understanding you need to have fewer opinions and even fewer that you share.”
Fisher: Constant anger diminishes authority whereas rare escalation commands attention
“If all you do is stay like a level eight or nine all the time and you're always angry, people don't know the difference between what's a level 10 threat and what's still just your norm threat. So what's, what really is the difference? Now, if I'm always at a t…”
Fisher: The economy of words means speaking less makes people listen more
“When people are in the habit of saying less and choosing their words, more people actually listen. It's like the economy of words. The less you give, the more they will listen. The more you say, the less they will.”
Fisher: Standing your ground on every minor issue exhausts your energy
“If you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are going to get tired. Like you just, some people are worth getting out of your chair for, and some people aren't.”
Fisher: Meeting insults with unbothered silence deters future attacks
“If you're gonna say something ugly to me, and then I just let it hang, oh, it's one of the most powerful things you can do, is to look at them as if there's nothing that you said that could ever harm me, and then they just don't do it as much.”
Fisher: Legal trials are never gotcha games with surprise facts
“People think that trial is this whole, a gotcha game. It's not. Everybody knows everybody's facts before you go in. None of it's a surprise. None of it. I know all your bad facts. You know all of my bad facts. We all know each other's bruises. It's just who ca…”
Fisher: The best cross-examinations use short statements instead of questions
“Really the best cross-examination aren't questions, they're very short statements”
Fisher: Complainers will not listen until they exhaust all grievances
“You have to let them get it all out or they're not going to listen to you, period.”
Fisher: Continual complaining usually stems from unrecognized basic needs
“How do you get out of this continual complaining? It's usually from an unrecognized basic need of hunger, attention, thirsty, something that's very, very basic that you just haven't given attention to.”
Fisher: Labeling emotions with 'I can tell' prevents acting defensively
“I mean, it's whatever emotion you're feeling, if you can label it with the I can tell, and you're getting it out, Then you're not acting on it.”
Fisher: Asking a workplace bully to repeat themselves neutralizes their attack
“When you're dealing with somebody belittling you or being rude or condescending, when they do that, what I want you to do is to ask them a question. And it's a question that they're not going to be used to. And it is, you're asking them to say it again. Whenev…”
Fisher: Firing comebacks to insults escalates conflict until the last speaker loses
“When somebody is insulting you, where you lose, is you send the Zynga right back. So let's say you're at a three, and they send you something that puts you at a five. We have a choice. Do I rise to the level of it, or do I keep it there? Because if you rise to…”
Fisher: Pausing five to seven seconds after an insult neutralizes it
“When you give it five to seven seconds of nothing, It just lets those words fall. A lot of the time, that's all it takes, because they have to hear their own ugliness out loud.”
Fisher: Conversational pace is the biggest indicator of high performers
“A thousand percent. And I'll tell you the biggest key is their pace. How fast or slow they respond.”
Fisher: Frequent profanity signals emotional sensitivity and dilutes communication
“If you cuss in every other sentence, what you really indicate is, I am emotionally sensitive. It's, I, I'm over seasoning my food. I don't have any other words to explain how I'm feeling or what I'm doing, so I just expect that throwing a curse word right in f…”
Fisher: Downward vocal inflection projects certainty while uptalk sounds unsure
“Every time person who goes up on the inflection, it sounds a lot more uncertain.
Unsure.
So you want to kind of end downward and slow your words down.”
Fisher: Ending sentences with eye contact masks looking away earlier
“People are much more forgiving if you don't keep eye contact the whole time. You can look around, but as long as you end the last bit of your sentence with eye contact, nobody will know the difference.”
Fisher: Being around hyper-anxious '10x' mentalities causes deep life dissatisfaction
“When you're around these people that are always anxious, always go, go, go, always wanna just, you gotta, 10 x everything about your life, like that is, that's a quick way to being really unsatisfied with a lot of things.”
Sanchez: Inability to have difficult conversations severely limits professional success
“If you're not capable of having difficult conversations to the point where you start to enjoy them because you learn from them, You'll probably never be very successful.”
Fisher: Transactional digital communication hurts young people's ability to have difficult conversations
“Another part of it is I do believe that there's so much transactional communication from text to Kids on Snapchat that only communicate by emojis, and you have TikTok, and you have every other app that you and I never had, and coming up to see that, I've seen …”
Fisher: People often mistake basic self-preservation in conflict for narcissism
“If you disagree with me, or we have a little scuffle, or we have a breakup, well, you're just a narcissist. All you do is care about yourself. A lot of it too is just self-preservation. I'm going to say things that benefit me. I'm not going to say things that …”
Fisher: People who cry easily display high emotional intelligence
“There are people that are just big criers, and to me that's their superpower. They can feel far more than anybody else can. It's their emotional intelligence on display.”
Fisher: Manipulative tears must not alter how you address someone
“And there, but there are also people that use tears to manipulate, and there are people that can whip up tears on A dime to get what they want, but that all the more highlights the importance of that does not change how you are going to talk to them.”
Fisher: Likability inspires greater loyalty and effort than pure efficiency
“You can do something because somebody is really efficient. You will do it more if you like them. And so, it's, people will follow you longer. People will listen to you longer. People are willing to make shortcuts, exceptions. They will make a miracle for you. …”
Fisher: Videos on listening consistently receive the worst viewership
“Anytime I've made a video on listening, it's the worst viewed video I ever have.”
Fisher: Slow left-lane drivers have the lowest emotional intelligence
“I find people with the least amount of, like, emotional intelligence are the ones that drive in the left lane and go slow.”
Fisher: Asking questions and using names is the fastest way to likability
“The number one instant ability to have somebody like you is you don't even have to like them. You just have to be interested enough to ask them more questions and you use their name.”
Fisher: Saying someone's name immediately interrupts dominant speakers in meetings
“If somebody is talking, trying to overpower a boardroom or a Zoom meeting, use their name. They'll stop.”
Sanchez: Continuously asking questions is the primary skill for investing success
“There's one real skill set if you want to make a ton of money in investing and it is asking a lot of questions continuously. And never being scared that you don't know the answer because you're, it's a, You know, zero sum game. You either get all the informati…”
Fisher: The wealthiest people are generous and eager to share advice
“You ask the people who've made the most money you've ever made. They are generous with their advice, generous with their lessons, because that's, a lot of the time, that's the easiest form of generosity that they can have, and they're looking forward to it.”
Fisher: Starting with pleasantries makes delivering bad news harder, not easier
“So instead, what you have to do is lead with the difficult. Trust me, It will make it easier. It only gets harder if you start with the easy and gradually progress to the bad news.”
Fisher: Responding with 'maybe so' disarms opponents and prompts concessions
“My favorite is to use is maybe so. Like somebody says something, no matter if it's an idea, or it could be something mean or condescending, or typically it's some kind of idea. I'll go, well, maybe so. Like that right there to me is, it's my favorite power mov…”