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Feb 7, 2016 · 20m · top-founders

How to Make $500k Teaching Someone Elses Software with Joseph Michael

Joseph Michael · 10m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top, host Nathan Latka interviews entrepreneur Joseph Michael on how he built Learn Scrivener Fast into a $500,000-per-year digital education business by teaching complex third-party writing software through joint venture webinars. Joseph breaks down his pricing tiers, frictionless partnership pitches, cold outreach tactics, and plans to leverage a 60,000-subscriber email list to reach $1 million in revenue.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 40.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 0.7 Nathan pushing back 1.5
05100:0010:0020:001:19–3:23 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Introducing Joseph Michael and the Genesis of Learn Scrivener Fast Nathan introduces the interview and immediately clarifies whether Joseph built Scrivener or coaches people on using it. Joseph explains the gap in the market between passionate software users and people overwhelmed by its steep learning curve.3:23–8:23 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Course Pricing Model, 2015 Revenue, and Personal Background Nathan digs into Joseph's pricing model and calculates webinar conversion metrics on the fly. Joseph reveals his course generates half a million dollars by pricing significantly higher than the software itself.8:23–11:43 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Structuring Frictionless 50/50 Joint Venture Partnerships Joseph walks through his 50/50 joint venture mechanics and how he bartered course access for research to source partner leads. Nathan emphasizes the practical value of trading course currency for services.11:43–14:11 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Targeting $1 Million Revenue and Leveraging an 60,000 Email List Nathan articulates his thesis that educators teaching software often make more revenue than the software creators themselves. Joseph outlines his plan to hit $1M by leveraging his 60,000-subscriber list to teach course creation.14:11–16:14 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Scrivener Relationship Dynamics and Potential Acquisition Deal Joseph explains the psychological friction that prevents software makers from partnering with trainers who highlight product difficulty. Nathan pitches an acquisition playbook to buy Scrivener and monetize its user base with webinars.16:14–19:26 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The Famous Five Lightning Round with Joseph Michael Nathan runs through the Famous Five questions where Joseph praises Nathan's tactics, highlights his favorite software tool ScreenFloat, and shares 80/20 advice.1:19–3:23 · Guest teaching 4/10 Introducing Joseph Michael and the Genesis of Learn Scrivener Fast Nathan introduces the interview and immediately clarifies whether Joseph built Scrivener or coaches people on using it. Joseph explains the gap in the market between passionate software users and people overwhelmed by its steep learning curve.3:23–8:23 · Guest teaching 3/10 Course Pricing Model, 2015 Revenue, and Personal Background Nathan digs into Joseph's pricing model and calculates webinar conversion metrics on the fly. Joseph reveals his course generates half a million dollars by pricing significantly higher than the software itself.8:23–11:43 · Guest teaching 4/10 Structuring Frictionless 50/50 Joint Venture Partnerships Joseph walks through his 50/50 joint venture mechanics and how he bartered course access for research to source partner leads. Nathan emphasizes the practical value of trading course currency for services.11:43–14:11 · Guest teaching 3/10 Targeting $1 Million Revenue and Leveraging an 60,000 Email List Nathan articulates his thesis that educators teaching software often make more revenue than the software creators themselves. Joseph outlines his plan to hit $1M by leveraging his 60,000-subscriber list to teach course creation.14:11–16:14 · Guest teaching 5/10 Scrivener Relationship Dynamics and Potential Acquisition Deal Joseph explains the psychological friction that prevents software makers from partnering with trainers who highlight product difficulty. Nathan pitches an acquisition playbook to buy Scrivener and monetize its user base with webinars.16:14–19:26 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Famous Five Lightning Round with Joseph Michael Nathan runs through the Famous Five questions where Joseph praises Nathan's tactics, highlights his favorite software tool ScreenFloat, and shares 80/20 advice.1:19–3:23 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Introducing Joseph Michael and the Genesis of Learn Scrivener Fast Nathan introduces the interview and immediately clarifies whether Joseph built Scrivener or coaches people on using it. Joseph explains the gap in the market between passionate software users and people overwhelmed by its steep learning curve.3:23–8:23 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Course Pricing Model, 2015 Revenue, and Personal Background Nathan digs into Joseph's pricing model and calculates webinar conversion metrics on the fly. Joseph reveals his course generates half a million dollars by pricing significantly higher than the software itself.8:23–11:43 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Structuring Frictionless 50/50 Joint Venture Partnerships Joseph walks through his 50/50 joint venture mechanics and how he bartered course access for research to source partner leads. Nathan emphasizes the practical value of trading course currency for services.11:43–14:11 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Targeting $1 Million Revenue and Leveraging an 60,000 Email List Nathan articulates his thesis that educators teaching software often make more revenue than the software creators themselves. Joseph outlines his plan to hit $1M by leveraging his 60,000-subscriber list to teach course creation.14:11–16:14 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Scrivener Relationship Dynamics and Potential Acquisition Deal Joseph explains the psychological friction that prevents software makers from partnering with trainers who highlight product difficulty. Nathan pitches an acquisition playbook to buy Scrivener and monetize its user base with webinars.16:14–19:26 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Famous Five Lightning Round with Joseph Michael Nathan runs through the Famous Five questions where Joseph praises Nathan's tactics, highlights his favorite software tool ScreenFloat, and shares 80/20 advice.1:19–3:23 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Introducing Joseph Michael and the Genesis of Learn Scrivener Fast Nathan introduces the interview and immediately clarifies whether Joseph built Scrivener or coaches people on using it. Joseph explains the gap in the market between passionate software users and people overwhelmed by its steep learning curve.3:23–8:23 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Course Pricing Model, 2015 Revenue, and Personal Background Nathan digs into Joseph's pricing model and calculates webinar conversion metrics on the fly. Joseph reveals his course generates half a million dollars by pricing significantly higher than the software itself.8:23–11:43 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Structuring Frictionless 50/50 Joint Venture Partnerships Joseph walks through his 50/50 joint venture mechanics and how he bartered course access for research to source partner leads. Nathan emphasizes the practical value of trading course currency for services.11:43–14:11 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Targeting $1 Million Revenue and Leveraging an 60,000 Email List Nathan articulates his thesis that educators teaching software often make more revenue than the software creators themselves. Joseph outlines his plan to hit $1M by leveraging his 60,000-subscriber list to teach course creation.14:11–16:14 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Scrivener Relationship Dynamics and Potential Acquisition Deal Joseph explains the psychological friction that prevents software makers from partnering with trainers who highlight product difficulty. Nathan pitches an acquisition playbook to buy Scrivener and monetize its user base with webinars.16:14–19:26 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Lightning Round with Joseph Michael Nathan runs through the Famous Five questions where Joseph praises Nathan's tactics, highlights his favorite software tool ScreenFloat, and shares 80/20 advice.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 71.2% · guest 28.8%0:00 · Nathan 71.2% · guest 28.8%3:00 · Nathan 31% · guest 69%3:00 · Nathan 31% · guest 69%6:00 · Nathan 17.9% · guest 82.1%6:00 · Nathan 17.9% · guest 82.1%9:00 · Nathan 21.5% · guest 78.5%9:00 · Nathan 21.5% · guest 78.5%12:00 · Nathan 34.5% · guest 65.5%12:00 · Nathan 34.5% · guest 65.5%15:00 · Nathan 56.1% · guest 43.9%15:00 · Nathan 56.1% · guest 43.9%18:00 · Nathan 51.9% · guest 48.1%18:00 · Nathan 51.9% · guest 48.1%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 13:29 Rejecting the premise of acquiring software

Joseph immediately shuts down Nathan's suggestion to buy Scrivener, firmly explaining his primary interest is course creation and teaching rather than owning software.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 7:37 Drilling into webinar math and attendee conversions

Nathan pauses the guest to break down and verify the specific conversion numbers and attendee ratios behind Joseph's initial webinar results.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 14:40 Educating on product creator psychology

Joseph explains to Nathan why official partnerships with software creators fail, highlighting that founders have difficulty admitting their software has a steep learning curve.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 12:48 Laying out the economics of software strategy vs software tools

Nathan demonstrates high-level business expertise by betting that training businesses out-earn software companies due to the critical value of execution strategy over tooling.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Joseph Michael and the Genesis of Learn Scrivener Fast 3411 Nathan introduces the interview and immediately clarifies whether Joseph built Scrivener or coaches people on using it. Joseph explains the gap in the market between passionate software users and people overwhelmed by its steep learning curve.
Course Pricing Model, 2015 Revenue, and Personal Background 5312 Nathan digs into Joseph's pricing model and calculates webinar conversion metrics on the fly. Joseph reveals his course generates half a million dollars by pricing significantly higher than the software itself.
Structuring Frictionless 50/50 Joint Venture Partnerships 5401 Joseph walks through his 50/50 joint venture mechanics and how he bartered course access for research to source partner leads. Nathan emphasizes the practical value of trading course currency for services.
Targeting $1 Million Revenue and Leveraging an 60,000 Email List 6312 Nathan articulates his thesis that educators teaching software often make more revenue than the software creators themselves. Joseph outlines his plan to hit $1M by leveraging his 60,000-subscriber list to teach course creation.
Scrivener Relationship Dynamics and Potential Acquisition Deal 6512 Joseph explains the psychological friction that prevents software makers from partnering with trainers who highlight product difficulty. Nathan pitches an acquisition playbook to buy Scrivener and monetize its user base with webinars.
The Famous Five Lightning Round with Joseph Michael 4201 Nathan runs through the Famous Five questions where Joseph praises Nathan's tactics, highlights his favorite software tool ScreenFloat, and shares 80/20 advice.

Statements from this episode (10)

Assertion Supported
Learn Scrivener Fast course costs $297, exceeding the software's $45 price
“We have three tiers to my course, the highest being 297, so the course is actually more than the software, which a lot of people kind of jaw drop with, wow, how do you make that work?”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 3:53
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Learn Scrivener Fast generated $500k in 2015 revenue
“And so, for instance, this last year, we're coming off a 500,000 year in revenue off of a tiny niche in Scrivener.”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 4:03
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Learn Scrivener Fast achieved 30% sales conversion on a JV webinar
“We did a webinar together. We had, you know, like, 30% conversion rates on, you know, the sales.”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 6:05
Disclosure
Webinars were Joseph Michael's best customer acquisition channel for two years
“I dropped everything and focused strictly on webinars for the last two years. And I haven't found anything better.”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 8:17
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Learn Scrivener Fast targets doubling revenue to $1M in 2016
“Well, we're hoping to double that again. We're hoping to hit a million this year and here's why.”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 11:52
Disclosure
Learn Scrivener Fast built a 60,000-subscriber email list via webinars
“The last two years I've built my email list up over to it's just hit over 60,000 people on it that are very targeted, that are full of webinar attendees”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 11:58
Insight
Latka claims teaching software often generates more revenue than the software itself
“My hunch tells me people always make more money teaching the software than usually what the software actually makes.”
Nathan Latka Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 12:55
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Learn Scrivener Fast enrolled over 15,000 students
“Now with over 15,000 students in my course, the sales reflect success.”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 13:57
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Half of Learn Scrivener Fast buyers already own the software
“It's a, it's about half and half. Like a lot of people that buy my course already have Scrivener.”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 14:13
Insight
Software creators struggle to admit their products have steep learning curves
“My marketing angle is that Scrivener is hard to learn, right? And it's a learning curve and from product creators, they have a hard time admitting that about their own product. And so there's that little bit of disconnect right there.”
Joseph Michael Feb 7, 2016 ▶ 14:46
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