StarZero All shows Try the podcast clipper →

Jul 31, 2016 · 18m · top-founders

Ep 372: How to Run A Small, Happy, Profitable Agency With James Turner

Nathan Latka · 8m spoken James Turner · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Host Nathan Latka interviews conversion copywriter James Turner on mastering conversion rate optimization, running a profitable solo consultancy with high-ticket retainers, and launching a productized copywriting agency.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 52.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 3.2 Guest teaching 2.2 Guest disagreement 1.3 Nathan pushing back 2.5
05100:0010:001:10–4:44 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Episode 372 Overview and Upcoming Guest Preview Latka relentlessly presses Turner for exact conversion baseline percentages and testing metrics on a client case study. Turner falters and admits he does not recall the numbers, eventually pushing back to plead to move off the topic.4:45–8:19 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Voice of Customer Research and Review Mining Turner thoroughly explains his methodology for voice of customer research and Amazon review mining to build messaging hierarchies. Latka facilitates with structured follow-up questions.8:20–11:05 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Scaling Turner Creative and Retainer Pricing Latka inquires about Turner Creative's early revenue figures and current retainer pricing model. Turner transparently shares his $10k three-month retainer structure and capacity limits.11:05–13:37 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Launching Snap Copy for On-Demand Content Turner describes launching Snap Copy as an on-demand credit-based agency model to service smaller clients. Latka clarifies the business structure and invites him to share website links.13:38–16:30 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 HostGator Website Hosting Sponsor Message Latka reads a sponsor ad before conducting the Famous Five rapid fire round. When Turner gives an ambiguous piece of advice to his 20-year-old self, Latka bluntly asks him to rephrase and clarify.16:33–18:15 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Previous Episode Recap Featuring Siva A pure host monologue recapping a previous episode guest and pitching live event tickets alongside sponsor promos, scored at zero across all dynamics.1:10–4:44 · Guest teaching 1/10 Episode 372 Overview and Upcoming Guest Preview Latka relentlessly presses Turner for exact conversion baseline percentages and testing metrics on a client case study. Turner falters and admits he does not recall the numbers, eventually pushing back to plead to move off the topic.4:45–8:19 · Guest teaching 6/10 Voice of Customer Research and Review Mining Turner thoroughly explains his methodology for voice of customer research and Amazon review mining to build messaging hierarchies. Latka facilitates with structured follow-up questions.8:20–11:05 · Guest teaching 2/10 Scaling Turner Creative and Retainer Pricing Latka inquires about Turner Creative's early revenue figures and current retainer pricing model. Turner transparently shares his $10k three-month retainer structure and capacity limits.11:05–13:37 · Guest teaching 2/10 Launching Snap Copy for On-Demand Content Turner describes launching Snap Copy as an on-demand credit-based agency model to service smaller clients. Latka clarifies the business structure and invites him to share website links.13:38–16:30 · Guest teaching 2/10 HostGator Website Hosting Sponsor Message Latka reads a sponsor ad before conducting the Famous Five rapid fire round. When Turner gives an ambiguous piece of advice to his 20-year-old self, Latka bluntly asks him to rephrase and clarify.16:33–18:15 · Guest teaching 0/10 Previous Episode Recap Featuring Siva A pure host monologue recapping a previous episode guest and pitching live event tickets alongside sponsor promos, scored at zero across all dynamics.1:10–4:44 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Episode 372 Overview and Upcoming Guest Preview Latka relentlessly presses Turner for exact conversion baseline percentages and testing metrics on a client case study. Turner falters and admits he does not recall the numbers, eventually pushing back to plead to move off the topic.4:45–8:19 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Voice of Customer Research and Review Mining Turner thoroughly explains his methodology for voice of customer research and Amazon review mining to build messaging hierarchies. Latka facilitates with structured follow-up questions.8:20–11:05 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Scaling Turner Creative and Retainer Pricing Latka inquires about Turner Creative's early revenue figures and current retainer pricing model. Turner transparently shares his $10k three-month retainer structure and capacity limits.11:05–13:37 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Launching Snap Copy for On-Demand Content Turner describes launching Snap Copy as an on-demand credit-based agency model to service smaller clients. Latka clarifies the business structure and invites him to share website links.13:38–16:30 · Guest disagreement 1/10 HostGator Website Hosting Sponsor Message Latka reads a sponsor ad before conducting the Famous Five rapid fire round. When Turner gives an ambiguous piece of advice to his 20-year-old self, Latka bluntly asks him to rephrase and clarify.16:33–18:15 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Previous Episode Recap Featuring Siva A pure host monologue recapping a previous episode guest and pitching live event tickets alongside sponsor promos, scored at zero across all dynamics.1:10–4:44 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Episode 372 Overview and Upcoming Guest Preview Latka relentlessly presses Turner for exact conversion baseline percentages and testing metrics on a client case study. Turner falters and admits he does not recall the numbers, eventually pushing back to plead to move off the topic.4:45–8:19 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Voice of Customer Research and Review Mining Turner thoroughly explains his methodology for voice of customer research and Amazon review mining to build messaging hierarchies. Latka facilitates with structured follow-up questions.8:20–11:05 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Scaling Turner Creative and Retainer Pricing Latka inquires about Turner Creative's early revenue figures and current retainer pricing model. Turner transparently shares his $10k three-month retainer structure and capacity limits.11:05–13:37 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Launching Snap Copy for On-Demand Content Turner describes launching Snap Copy as an on-demand credit-based agency model to service smaller clients. Latka clarifies the business structure and invites him to share website links.13:38–16:30 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 HostGator Website Hosting Sponsor Message Latka reads a sponsor ad before conducting the Famous Five rapid fire round. When Turner gives an ambiguous piece of advice to his 20-year-old self, Latka bluntly asks him to rephrase and clarify.16:33–18:15 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Previous Episode Recap Featuring Siva A pure host monologue recapping a previous episode guest and pitching live event tickets alongside sponsor promos, scored at zero across all dynamics.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 69.5% · guest 30.5%0:00 · Nathan 69.5% · guest 30.5%3:00 · Nathan 40.7% · guest 59.3%3:00 · Nathan 40.7% · guest 59.3%6:00 · Nathan 11.9% · guest 88.1%6:00 · Nathan 11.9% · guest 88.1%9:00 · Nathan 19.5% · guest 80.5%9:00 · Nathan 19.5% · guest 80.5%12:00 · Nathan 85.4% · guest 14.6%12:00 · Nathan 85.4% · guest 14.6%15:00 · Nathan 79.9% · guest 20.1%15:00 · Nathan 79.9% · guest 20.1%18:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%18:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 4:22 Turner asks to exit the metrics discussion

Turner bluntly announces that he is on the hot seat due to subcontracting and directly demands to get off the topic after being pressed on specific conversion metrics.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 3:36 Latka refuses Turner's deflection on conversion benchmarks

When Turner says he cannot speak to specific traffic figures, Latka refuses to let him off the hook and instructs him to provide industry benchmarks from his broad domain knowledge.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:11 Turner teaches Amazon review mining strategy

Turner delivers a clear lesson on extracting recurring customer pain points from competitor Amazon reviews to establish an empirical messaging hierarchy.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 3:16 Latka drills down on conversion measurement definitions

Latka demonstrates his domain familiarity with funnel mechanics by challenging Turner on whether the 2% conversion rate referred to unique visitors or free trial signups.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Episode 372 Overview and Upcoming Guest Preview 6147 Latka relentlessly presses Turner for exact conversion baseline percentages and testing metrics on a client case study. Turner falters and admits he does not recall the numbers, eventually pushing back to plead to move off the topic.
Voice of Customer Research and Review Mining 4612 Turner thoroughly explains his methodology for voice of customer research and Amazon review mining to build messaging hierarchies. Latka facilitates with structured follow-up questions.
Scaling Turner Creative and Retainer Pricing 3212 Latka inquires about Turner Creative's early revenue figures and current retainer pricing model. Turner transparently shares his $10k three-month retainer structure and capacity limits.
Launching Snap Copy for On-Demand Content 3211 Turner describes launching Snap Copy as an on-demand credit-based agency model to service smaller clients. Latka clarifies the business structure and invites him to share website links.
HostGator Website Hosting Sponsor Message 3213 Latka reads a sponsor ad before conducting the Famous Five rapid fire round. When Turner gives an ambiguous piece of advice to his 20-year-old self, Latka bluntly asks him to rephrase and clarify.
Previous Episode Recap Featuring Siva 0000 A pure host monologue recapping a previous episode guest and pitching live event tickets alongside sponsor promos, scored at zero across all dynamics.

Statements from this episode (8)

Insight
Turner: A 2% homepage conversion rate is average; 10% is great
“Two percent is fine. I think it's probably around the average. I don't think that that's upsetting. 10% would be great.”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 4:00
Insight
Turner: Founders struggle with copywriting because they are too close to products
“I think the biggest problem is that people have a really hard time putting themselves in the heads of their customers. Typically you've spent hours and hours of your life building up a product, building up a company, and you're just too close to it to see what…”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 5:02
Insight
Turner: Mine Amazon reviews to quantify pain points and build messaging
“Amazon review mining is, is a thing that is great if you have a product that either has, is on Amazon or has a competitor on Amazon or a similar product or even a book about what you're selling. You can go through large, large numbers of small reviews by peopl…”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 7:38
Disclosure
James Turner: Turner Creative made ~$36k in first year revenue
“It was something like 36,000 dollars.”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 9:11
Disclosure
James Turner: Turner Creative 2015 revenue approached $40k to $45k
“2015 was somewhere, it was edging closer to 40, 45,000.”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 9:33
Disclosure
Turner: Turner Creative charges $10,000 for a three-month part-time retainer
“So I've been slowly increasing my prices, so averaging them out would be no good, but I'll tell you what I'm doing right now that's really working for me is, is 10,000 for a three month part time retainer.”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 9:47
Disclosure
Turner limits his agency to a maximum of two concurrent retainers
“I only want to do two retainers at a time. I don't like to overtax that kind of thing.”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 10:55
Insight
Turner: Effective conversion research requires at least a three-month retainer
“So the conversion focused deep dive customer research stuff takes a long time, hence the three month retainer minimum. You just can't really do, do enough research to do it justice with any time less than that.”
James Turner Jul 31, 2016 ▶ 11:29
Made with StarZero

Turn any episode into a week of clips.

This entire site, over 2,600 episodes transcribed, diarized, checked and made playable, runs on the StarZero media pipeline. Drop in your own episode and the podcast clipper finds the moments worth sharing, cuts them, captions them, and reframes them for every feed.

Try the podcast clipper Learn more