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Jun 14, 2017 · 18m · top-founders

690: MarTech Chart Gets 1m+ Uniques, Future of CRM, Passive Monetization with CEO Scott Brinker

Nathan Latka · 8m spoken Scott Brinker · 7m spoken Podcast Intro Snippet · 7s spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this interview, SaaS entrepreneur and ChiefMartec editor Scott Brinker explores the rapid expansion of the marketing technology landscape, the strategy behind his viral MarTech supergraphic, and how he monetized ungated industry research through high-ticket keynote speaking and conference partnerships.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 52.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.2 Guest teaching 3.2 Guest disagreement 1.5 Nathan pushing back 2.8
05100:0010:001:17–3:23 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Origins of the MarTech Supergraphic Nathan introduces Scott and discusses using his MarTech supergraphic to recruit guests. Scott explains his background and how marketing evolved from a non-technical field into a technology-driven discipline.3:23–6:28 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Comparing ion interactive and ChiefMartec Operations Nathan tries to extract revenue figures, but Scott playfully deflects, noting he is familiar with Nathan's interview style. Nathan accepts the boundary and displays his research by detailing ChiefMartec's Alexa ranking and backlink profile.6:28–9:30 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Transitioning to Paid Keynote Speaking Nathan pushes Scott to skip the early free speaking years to keep the pacing tight. When Nathan guesses a speaking tour was a two-month, six-figure engagement, Scott corrects him with the actual figures of two weeks and five figures.9:30–12:08 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Building the MarTech Conference Partnership Scott clarifies the operational division between himself and Third Door Media for the MarTech conference. He then gives an insightful breakdown of innovation in seemingly stagnant sectors like headless CMS.12:08–14:48 · Nathan as informed peer 8/10 The Future of CRM and Data Orchestration Nathan posits that CRM is a commoditized space racing to zero, but Scott directly disagrees, explaining that orchestration and integrations add massive value beyond raw data storage. Nathan demonstrates his domain expertise by rattling off metrics from ten CRM startups he has interviewed.14:48–16:05 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite books, CEOs, tools, and life reflections, with Scott providing concise, friendly answers.1:17–3:23 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Origins of the MarTech Supergraphic Nathan introduces Scott and discusses using his MarTech supergraphic to recruit guests. Scott explains his background and how marketing evolved from a non-technical field into a technology-driven discipline.3:23–6:28 · Guest teaching 3/10 Comparing ion interactive and ChiefMartec Operations Nathan tries to extract revenue figures, but Scott playfully deflects, noting he is familiar with Nathan's interview style. Nathan accepts the boundary and displays his research by detailing ChiefMartec's Alexa ranking and backlink profile.6:28–9:30 · Guest teaching 3/10 Transitioning to Paid Keynote Speaking Nathan pushes Scott to skip the early free speaking years to keep the pacing tight. When Nathan guesses a speaking tour was a two-month, six-figure engagement, Scott corrects him with the actual figures of two weeks and five figures.9:30–12:08 · Guest teaching 4/10 Building the MarTech Conference Partnership Scott clarifies the operational division between himself and Third Door Media for the MarTech conference. He then gives an insightful breakdown of innovation in seemingly stagnant sectors like headless CMS.12:08–14:48 · Guest teaching 6/10 The Future of CRM and Data Orchestration Nathan posits that CRM is a commoditized space racing to zero, but Scott directly disagrees, explaining that orchestration and integrations add massive value beyond raw data storage. Nathan demonstrates his domain expertise by rattling off metrics from ten CRM startups he has interviewed.14:48–16:05 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite books, CEOs, tools, and life reflections, with Scott providing concise, friendly answers.1:17–3:23 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Origins of the MarTech Supergraphic Nathan introduces Scott and discusses using his MarTech supergraphic to recruit guests. Scott explains his background and how marketing evolved from a non-technical field into a technology-driven discipline.3:23–6:28 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Comparing ion interactive and ChiefMartec Operations Nathan tries to extract revenue figures, but Scott playfully deflects, noting he is familiar with Nathan's interview style. Nathan accepts the boundary and displays his research by detailing ChiefMartec's Alexa ranking and backlink profile.6:28–9:30 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Transitioning to Paid Keynote Speaking Nathan pushes Scott to skip the early free speaking years to keep the pacing tight. When Nathan guesses a speaking tour was a two-month, six-figure engagement, Scott corrects him with the actual figures of two weeks and five figures.9:30–12:08 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Building the MarTech Conference Partnership Scott clarifies the operational division between himself and Third Door Media for the MarTech conference. He then gives an insightful breakdown of innovation in seemingly stagnant sectors like headless CMS.12:08–14:48 · Guest disagreement 4/10 The Future of CRM and Data Orchestration Nathan posits that CRM is a commoditized space racing to zero, but Scott directly disagrees, explaining that orchestration and integrations add massive value beyond raw data storage. Nathan demonstrates his domain expertise by rattling off metrics from ten CRM startups he has interviewed.14:48–16:05 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite books, CEOs, tools, and life reflections, with Scott providing concise, friendly answers.1:17–3:23 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 The Origins of the MarTech Supergraphic Nathan introduces Scott and discusses using his MarTech supergraphic to recruit guests. Scott explains his background and how marketing evolved from a non-technical field into a technology-driven discipline.3:23–6:28 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Comparing ion interactive and ChiefMartec Operations Nathan tries to extract revenue figures, but Scott playfully deflects, noting he is familiar with Nathan's interview style. Nathan accepts the boundary and displays his research by detailing ChiefMartec's Alexa ranking and backlink profile.6:28–9:30 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Transitioning to Paid Keynote Speaking Nathan pushes Scott to skip the early free speaking years to keep the pacing tight. When Nathan guesses a speaking tour was a two-month, six-figure engagement, Scott corrects him with the actual figures of two weeks and five figures.9:30–12:08 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Building the MarTech Conference Partnership Scott clarifies the operational division between himself and Third Door Media for the MarTech conference. He then gives an insightful breakdown of innovation in seemingly stagnant sectors like headless CMS.12:08–14:48 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 The Future of CRM and Data Orchestration Nathan posits that CRM is a commoditized space racing to zero, but Scott directly disagrees, explaining that orchestration and integrations add massive value beyond raw data storage. Nathan demonstrates his domain expertise by rattling off metrics from ten CRM startups he has interviewed.14:48–16:05 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite books, CEOs, tools, and life reflections, with Scott providing concise, friendly answers.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 59.6% · guest 40.4%0:00 · Nathan 59.6% · guest 40.4%3:00 · Nathan 49.9% · guest 50.1%3:00 · Nathan 49.9% · guest 50.1%6:00 · Nathan 26.4% · guest 73.6%6:00 · Nathan 26.4% · guest 73.6%9:00 · Nathan 34.4% · guest 65.6%9:00 · Nathan 34.4% · guest 65.6%12:00 · Nathan 62.7% · guest 37.3%12:00 · Nathan 62.7% · guest 37.3%15:00 · Nathan 83.7% · guest 16.3%15:00 · Nathan 83.7% · guest 16.3%18:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%18:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 12:27 Scott rejects Nathan's CRM commoditization premise

Scott directly states 'No' when Nathan suggests CRM is being commoditized to zero, reframing the category around data orchestration rather than simple storage.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 8:29 Nathan interrupts to speed up the narrative

Nathan cuts in to steer the conversation past the generic beginnings of Scott's speaking career, demanding to hear about the specific tipping point to preserve show timing.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:27 Scott educates on the complexity of modern CRM ecosystems

Scott articulately breaks down why basic data storage might trend toward zero cost while the value of orchestration, workflows, and third-party layering continues to explode.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 13:16 Nathan rattles off aggregated CRM industry data

Nathan demonstrates command of the CRM sector by listing ten specific CRM companies from previous interviews and calculating their combined $70M ARR.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
The Origins of the MarTech Supergraphic 3202 Nathan introduces Scott and discusses using his MarTech supergraphic to recruit guests. Scott explains his background and how marketing evolved from a non-technical field into a technology-driven discipline.
Comparing ion interactive and ChiefMartec Operations 5323 Nathan tries to extract revenue figures, but Scott playfully deflects, noting he is familiar with Nathan's interview style. Nathan accepts the boundary and displays his research by detailing ChiefMartec's Alexa ranking and backlink profile.
Transitioning to Paid Keynote Speaking 3325 Nathan pushes Scott to skip the early free speaking years to keep the pacing tight. When Nathan guesses a speaking tour was a two-month, six-figure engagement, Scott corrects him with the actual figures of two weeks and five figures.
Building the MarTech Conference Partnership 4412 Scott clarifies the operational division between himself and Third Door Media for the MarTech conference. He then gives an insightful breakdown of innovation in seemingly stagnant sectors like headless CMS.
The Future of CRM and Data Orchestration 8644 Nathan posits that CRM is a commoditized space racing to zero, but Scott directly disagrees, explaining that orchestration and integrations add massive value beyond raw data storage. Nathan demonstrates his domain expertise by rattling off metrics from ten CRM startups he has interviewed.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 2101 Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite books, CEOs, tools, and life reflections, with Scott providing concise, friendly answers.

Statements from this episode (8)

Assertion Partly supported
Brinker: MarTech supergraphic includes roughly 3,600 to 3,800 logos
“Like 3638 hundred.”
Scott Brinker Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 1:35
Disclosure
Brinker: Researched MarTech landscape entirely solo until bringing in help
“So in previous years, I've done it entirely by myself. Frankly, because yeah, actually, I mean, like you have in your experience with interviewing all these SaaS companies, I find actually researching all these companies firsthand is so educational and getting…”
Scott Brinker Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 1:46
Disclosure
Brinker: Ungating the MarTech supergraphic drove millions of impressions
“It's millions, and part of it is you know, I early on made the decision that I wasn't looking to somehow directly monetize this myself, so I've widely encouraged people to distribute it.”
Scott Brinker Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 4:46
Assertion Supported
Brinker: The first MarTech landscape chart was just a conference slide
“I started that chart because I had a speaking engagement at a conference and I was going to speak to them about, you know, this marketing technologist role of technologists invading the marketing department.”
Scott Brinker Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 8:06
Opinion
Brinker in 2017: Content management is undergoing a headless CMS revolution
“I mean, that that whole group right now is going through this, like, headless CMS you know, revolution, this idea of really taking over, like, API-driven content management, you know.”
Scott Brinker Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 11:29
Insight
Brinker: CRM storage trends to zero, but orchestration retains massive value
“So I think if you look at the absolute fundamental, hey, we're going to have customer records in some sort of centralized database, yes, we can say that element, you know, is going to trend towards zero, is every, You know, data infrastructure offering out the…”
Scott Brinker Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 12:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Latka: Ten CRM startups collectively reached $70M ARR on $70M invested
“We've had Batchbook, Pipedrive, Prosperworks, Close, Propeller, Yesware, Contactually, Serious Insights, Badger Maps, and Kit on the show, which are all basically in that space, and if you add up all those companies just together, they're doing about six milli…”
Nathan Latka Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 13:21
Opinion
Brinker: Trello is the duct tape of the world
“Ah, I love Trello. It's like the duct tape of the world at this point.”
Scott Brinker Jun 14, 2017 ▶ 15:22
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