Dec 7, 2020 · 20m · top-founders

Tenon Hits 2m Revenue In Automated Testing Space

Carl Groves · 10m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken Eric Yuan · 4s spoken Vivek Bhaskaran · 2s spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this interview with Nathan Latka, Tenon.io founder Carl Groves shares how he bootstrapped his automated web accessibility testing platform from an engineering project into a $2 million-plus annual revenue business. Groves explains Tenon's hybrid SaaS and consulting monetization model, enterprise customer retention strategies, and disciplined 14-person organizational structure.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 41.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.4 Guest teaching 1.3 Guest disagreement 1.3 Nathan pushing back 3.4
05100:0010:0020:000:25–4:11 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Promotion: Premium Access on GetLatka Platform The segment starts with a podcast subscription promotion and archival clips before Nathan introduces Carl Groves. Nathan promptly establishes basic SaaS pricing comparisons and asks specific questions regarding customer tiers and ACV calculations.4:11–7:11 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Measuring Platform Usage and Customer Scale Nathan inquires into platform usage metrics, engineering headcount, bootstrap status, and development timelines. Carl openly answers each question regarding customer count and service expansion.7:12–10:44 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Breaking Down Monthly Revenue and SaaS Contract Values Nathan pushes Carl for hard dollar numbers when Carl offers ambiguous percentage breakdowns of SaaS versus services revenue. Nathan recalculates the ARPU and customer tiers on the fly to clarify the company's financial model.10:47–15:05 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Sponsor Break: FastSpring Digital Commerce Platform Following a sponsor read, Nathan grills Carl on revenue and logo churn metrics and customer lifetime value. Carl is unable to produce churn or LTV metrics, prompting Nathan to repeatedly highlight the necessity of knowing these core SaaS metrics.15:05–17:25 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Balancing Low-Tier SaaS Churn Against Enterprise Retention Nathan directly challenges Carl for not knowing critical metrics like churn and LTV. Carl pushes back by defending his enterprise focus, stating that large contract sizes outweigh low-tier SaaS metric tracking.17:25–20:12 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Sales Operations, Paid Acquisition, and Rapid Revenue Growth The conversation shifts into sales acquisition, marketing spend, and annual growth, showing impressive growth from 780k to over 2 million. Nathan runs through the famous five questions smoothly.20:13–20:33 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Executive Summary and Podcast Episode Conclusion Monologue outro where Nathan recaps the business numbers and thanks the guest.0:25–4:11 · Guest teaching 1/10 Promotion: Premium Access on GetLatka Platform The segment starts with a podcast subscription promotion and archival clips before Nathan introduces Carl Groves. Nathan promptly establishes basic SaaS pricing comparisons and asks specific questions regarding customer tiers and ACV calculations.4:11–7:11 · Guest teaching 1/10 Measuring Platform Usage and Customer Scale Nathan inquires into platform usage metrics, engineering headcount, bootstrap status, and development timelines. Carl openly answers each question regarding customer count and service expansion.7:12–10:44 · Guest teaching 1/10 Breaking Down Monthly Revenue and SaaS Contract Values Nathan pushes Carl for hard dollar numbers when Carl offers ambiguous percentage breakdowns of SaaS versus services revenue. Nathan recalculates the ARPU and customer tiers on the fly to clarify the company's financial model.10:47–15:05 · Guest teaching 2/10 Sponsor Break: FastSpring Digital Commerce Platform Following a sponsor read, Nathan grills Carl on revenue and logo churn metrics and customer lifetime value. Carl is unable to produce churn or LTV metrics, prompting Nathan to repeatedly highlight the necessity of knowing these core SaaS metrics.15:05–17:25 · Guest teaching 3/10 Balancing Low-Tier SaaS Churn Against Enterprise Retention Nathan directly challenges Carl for not knowing critical metrics like churn and LTV. Carl pushes back by defending his enterprise focus, stating that large contract sizes outweigh low-tier SaaS metric tracking.17:25–20:12 · Guest teaching 1/10 Sales Operations, Paid Acquisition, and Rapid Revenue Growth The conversation shifts into sales acquisition, marketing spend, and annual growth, showing impressive growth from 780k to over 2 million. Nathan runs through the famous five questions smoothly.20:13–20:33 · Guest teaching 0/10 Executive Summary and Podcast Episode Conclusion Monologue outro where Nathan recaps the business numbers and thanks the guest.0:25–4:11 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Promotion: Premium Access on GetLatka Platform The segment starts with a podcast subscription promotion and archival clips before Nathan introduces Carl Groves. Nathan promptly establishes basic SaaS pricing comparisons and asks specific questions regarding customer tiers and ACV calculations.4:11–7:11 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Measuring Platform Usage and Customer Scale Nathan inquires into platform usage metrics, engineering headcount, bootstrap status, and development timelines. Carl openly answers each question regarding customer count and service expansion.7:12–10:44 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Breaking Down Monthly Revenue and SaaS Contract Values Nathan pushes Carl for hard dollar numbers when Carl offers ambiguous percentage breakdowns of SaaS versus services revenue. Nathan recalculates the ARPU and customer tiers on the fly to clarify the company's financial model.10:47–15:05 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Sponsor Break: FastSpring Digital Commerce Platform Following a sponsor read, Nathan grills Carl on revenue and logo churn metrics and customer lifetime value. Carl is unable to produce churn or LTV metrics, prompting Nathan to repeatedly highlight the necessity of knowing these core SaaS metrics.15:05–17:25 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Balancing Low-Tier SaaS Churn Against Enterprise Retention Nathan directly challenges Carl for not knowing critical metrics like churn and LTV. Carl pushes back by defending his enterprise focus, stating that large contract sizes outweigh low-tier SaaS metric tracking.17:25–20:12 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sales Operations, Paid Acquisition, and Rapid Revenue Growth The conversation shifts into sales acquisition, marketing spend, and annual growth, showing impressive growth from 780k to over 2 million. Nathan runs through the famous five questions smoothly.20:13–20:33 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Executive Summary and Podcast Episode Conclusion Monologue outro where Nathan recaps the business numbers and thanks the guest.0:25–4:11 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Promotion: Premium Access on GetLatka Platform The segment starts with a podcast subscription promotion and archival clips before Nathan introduces Carl Groves. Nathan promptly establishes basic SaaS pricing comparisons and asks specific questions regarding customer tiers and ACV calculations.4:11–7:11 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Measuring Platform Usage and Customer Scale Nathan inquires into platform usage metrics, engineering headcount, bootstrap status, and development timelines. Carl openly answers each question regarding customer count and service expansion.7:12–10:44 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Breaking Down Monthly Revenue and SaaS Contract Values Nathan pushes Carl for hard dollar numbers when Carl offers ambiguous percentage breakdowns of SaaS versus services revenue. Nathan recalculates the ARPU and customer tiers on the fly to clarify the company's financial model.10:47–15:05 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Sponsor Break: FastSpring Digital Commerce Platform Following a sponsor read, Nathan grills Carl on revenue and logo churn metrics and customer lifetime value. Carl is unable to produce churn or LTV metrics, prompting Nathan to repeatedly highlight the necessity of knowing these core SaaS metrics.15:05–17:25 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Balancing Low-Tier SaaS Churn Against Enterprise Retention Nathan directly challenges Carl for not knowing critical metrics like churn and LTV. Carl pushes back by defending his enterprise focus, stating that large contract sizes outweigh low-tier SaaS metric tracking.17:25–20:12 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Sales Operations, Paid Acquisition, and Rapid Revenue Growth The conversation shifts into sales acquisition, marketing spend, and annual growth, showing impressive growth from 780k to over 2 million. Nathan runs through the famous five questions smoothly.20:13–20:33 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Executive Summary and Podcast Episode Conclusion Monologue outro where Nathan recaps the business numbers and thanks the guest.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 61.1% · guest 38.9%0:00 · Nathan 61.1% · guest 38.9%3:00 · Nathan 25.1% · guest 74.9%3:00 · Nathan 25.1% · guest 74.9%6:00 · Nathan 45.6% · guest 54.4%6:00 · Nathan 45.6% · guest 54.4%9:00 · Nathan 44.8% · guest 55.2%9:00 · Nathan 44.8% · guest 55.2%12:00 · Nathan 28.3% · guest 71.7%12:00 · Nathan 28.3% · guest 71.7%15:00 · Nathan 42.6% · guest 57.4%15:00 · Nathan 42.6% · guest 57.4%18:00 · Nathan 44.2% · guest 55.8%18:00 · Nathan 44.2% · guest 55.8%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 15:50 Guest defends lack of metric visibility

Carl directly complains that Nathan is putting him on the spot after being challenged for not knowing basic churn metrics.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 13:37 Host insists churn is critical for SaaS

Nathan refuses to let go of the churn question, pressing Carl on why a SaaS founder does not know the company's churn rate.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:17 Enterprise contracts versus low-tier SaaS focus

Carl explains to Nathan why micro-tier churn is irrelevant to his operational focus compared to 36k enterprise annual contracts.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 8:10 Recomputing ARPU on the fly

Nathan demonstrates financial modeling expertise by immediately calculating that 110 customers at 50k MRR requires a 500 dollar ARPU.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Promotion: Premium Access on GetLatka Platform 5102 The segment starts with a podcast subscription promotion and archival clips before Nathan introduces Carl Groves. Nathan promptly establishes basic SaaS pricing comparisons and asks specific questions regarding customer tiers and ACV calculations.
Measuring Platform Usage and Customer Scale 6102 Nathan inquires into platform usage metrics, engineering headcount, bootstrap status, and development timelines. Carl openly answers each question regarding customer count and service expansion.
Breaking Down Monthly Revenue and SaaS Contract Values 7114 Nathan pushes Carl for hard dollar numbers when Carl offers ambiguous percentage breakdowns of SaaS versus services revenue. Nathan recalculates the ARPU and customer tiers on the fly to clarify the company's financial model.
Sponsor Break: FastSpring Digital Commerce Platform 7237 Following a sponsor read, Nathan grills Carl on revenue and logo churn metrics and customer lifetime value. Carl is unable to produce churn or LTV metrics, prompting Nathan to repeatedly highlight the necessity of knowing these core SaaS metrics.
Balancing Low-Tier SaaS Churn Against Enterprise Retention 7347 Nathan directly challenges Carl for not knowing critical metrics like churn and LTV. Carl pushes back by defending his enterprise focus, stating that large contract sizes outweigh low-tier SaaS metric tracking.
Sales Operations, Paid Acquisition, and Rapid Revenue Growth 6112 The conversation shifts into sales acquisition, marketing spend, and annual growth, showing impressive growth from 780k to over 2 million. Nathan runs through the famous five questions smoothly.
Executive Summary and Podcast Episode Conclusion 0000 Monologue outro where Nathan recaps the business numbers and thanks the guest.

Statements from this episode (15)

Assertion Supported
Groves: Tenon was the first automated web accessibility testing SaaS platform
“Well, in our case, because we're the first SaaS platform to do this, we do have a variety of customers from small design agencies to small and midsize companies to even massive companies that are in the enterprise software space.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 2:36
Disclosure
Groves: Tenon charges $8k for high-volume SaaS and $36k for enterprise
“High volume customers, they're going to pay about 8000 dollars a year for the SaaS plans up to, for enterprise sales. 36,000 dollars a year for the license plus fees for hosting and stuff like that.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 3:06
Disclosure
Groves: Tenon's average SaaS annual contract value is $4k to $8k
“No, for those, for annual, we're talking somewhere in that four to 8000 dollars a year ring.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 3:27
Disclosure
Groves: Tenon has 10,000 platform users but only 110 paying customers
“So we have 10,000 users on the platform today. A lot of our revenue comes from enterprise sales, so those are gonna be, so we have about a 110 paying customers right now.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 5:20
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Groves: Tenon is 100% bootstrapped and cash-flow positive
“100% bootstrapped. Every single piece of money that, that we make goes right back in and we're a cash positive business.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 6:28
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Groves: Tenon operates with a 14-person team
“14.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 6:38
Disclosure
Groves: Software subscriptions drive 50% to 60% of Tenon's revenue
“The SaaS is not as revenue generating as the enterprise sales are, so I would say all in, we're probably about fifty-fifty, maybe a little bit closer to 60 on the on the product side.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 7:20
Disclosure
Groves: Tenon generates $100K to $150K per month in revenue
“Yeah, so we're talking about, yeah, we're talking more along the lines of a hundred to a 150,000.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 7:57
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Groves: Tenon maintained revenue despite sunsetting its $9 monthly micro plan
“When, with the change of the pricing, we didn't actually lose any money.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 13:26
Disclosure
Groves: Tenon used Stripe Advance to pay down credit card debt
“We did a Stripe Advance because I wanted to pay down some credit card debt, and the rate that they gave was way better than the credit card.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 14:32
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Groves: Tenon has retained 100% of its enterprise customers since 2015
“And as a matter of fact, every single one of our enterprise customers are still with us. Some of them have been with us since, since 2015.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 17:15
Disclosure
Groves: Tenon employs two quota-carrying sales reps
“We have two sales people.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 17:28
Disclosure
Groves: Tenon spends about $2,000 monthly on paid ads
“Right now we're talking about a 2000.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 18:21
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Groves: Tenon did $780k in total revenue last year
“Our income, our revenue last year was 780,000.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 18:44
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Groves: Tenon surpassed $2 million in annual revenue in 2020
“No, we're already past two, two million.”
Carl Groves Dec 7, 2020 ▶ 18:52
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