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Dec 7, 2022 · 35m · saastr

SaaStr CRO Confidential: Founders Fund Partner Sam Blond + Gong VPS Jameson Yung + Jason Lemkin

Sam Blond · 12m spoken Jameson Yung · 11m spoken Jason Lemkin · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
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In this episode of CRO Confidential, sales leaders Sam Blond, Jameson Yung, and Jason Lemkin share tactical frameworks for building and dominating a B2B software category, recruiting top sales talent, and navigating macroeconomic downturns. Drawing on decades of combined experience at Gong, EchoSign, and Zenefits, they provide actionable playbooks on competitive positioning, sales coaching, and defending renewals against CFO scrutiny.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Jason holds 26.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Jason as informed peer 5.8 Guest teaching 4.2 Guest disagreement 1.0 Jason pushing back 1.4
05100:0010:0020:0030:000:05–4:07 · Jason as informed peer 5/10 Introductions and Early Insights on Sales Call Quality The conversation opens with warm historical recollections among long-time colleagues. Jason shares an early observation from the Adobe acquisition regarding the shocking variance in sales call quality across reps before call-recording software existed.4:07–10:01 · Jason as informed peer 6/10 Category Creation and Fast Time-to-Value at Gong Jason brings historical context about software budget expansion rules relative to Salesforce contract sizes. Jameson educates the hosts by clarifying that Gong was never self-serve PLG and admits that abandoning their guided pilot assessment motion was a mistake.10:01–14:38 · Jason as informed peer 6/10 Outselling Competition Through Senior Talent and Brand Air Cover Jason asks a direct, probing question about how Gong defeated Chorus despite nuclear product parity. Jameson explains how intentionally raising quotas and OTEs allowed Gong to hire seasoned reps capable of selling directly to executive sales leaders.14:38–20:02 · Jason as informed peer 5/10 Category Creation Mistakes, Champions, and Brand Traps Jameson reveals tactical mistakes Gong made early on, specifically noting how Chorus leveraged equity advisors inside target accounts to lock Gong out. Sam and Jason reflect on the power of raving fans and the branding trap of prioritizing valuation hype over product clarity.20:02–29:34 · Jason as informed peer 7/10 Leading Sales Teams Through Economic Headwinds and Downturns Jason aggressively pushes back on the prevailing tech panic narrative, arguing that current performance feels terrible only because 2021 comps were historically abnormal. Jameson explains how Gong manages rep morale, focuses on controllable inputs, and restructures ROI messaging for CFO scrutiny.0:05–4:07 · Guest teaching 1/10 Introductions and Early Insights on Sales Call Quality The conversation opens with warm historical recollections among long-time colleagues. Jason shares an early observation from the Adobe acquisition regarding the shocking variance in sales call quality across reps before call-recording software existed.4:07–10:01 · Guest teaching 5/10 Category Creation and Fast Time-to-Value at Gong Jason brings historical context about software budget expansion rules relative to Salesforce contract sizes. Jameson educates the hosts by clarifying that Gong was never self-serve PLG and admits that abandoning their guided pilot assessment motion was a mistake.10:01–14:38 · Guest teaching 6/10 Outselling Competition Through Senior Talent and Brand Air Cover Jason asks a direct, probing question about how Gong defeated Chorus despite nuclear product parity. Jameson explains how intentionally raising quotas and OTEs allowed Gong to hire seasoned reps capable of selling directly to executive sales leaders.14:38–20:02 · Guest teaching 5/10 Category Creation Mistakes, Champions, and Brand Traps Jameson reveals tactical mistakes Gong made early on, specifically noting how Chorus leveraged equity advisors inside target accounts to lock Gong out. Sam and Jason reflect on the power of raving fans and the branding trap of prioritizing valuation hype over product clarity.20:02–29:34 · Guest teaching 4/10 Leading Sales Teams Through Economic Headwinds and Downturns Jason aggressively pushes back on the prevailing tech panic narrative, arguing that current performance feels terrible only because 2021 comps were historically abnormal. Jameson explains how Gong manages rep morale, focuses on controllable inputs, and restructures ROI messaging for CFO scrutiny.0:05–4:07 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Introductions and Early Insights on Sales Call Quality The conversation opens with warm historical recollections among long-time colleagues. Jason shares an early observation from the Adobe acquisition regarding the shocking variance in sales call quality across reps before call-recording software existed.4:07–10:01 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Category Creation and Fast Time-to-Value at Gong Jason brings historical context about software budget expansion rules relative to Salesforce contract sizes. Jameson educates the hosts by clarifying that Gong was never self-serve PLG and admits that abandoning their guided pilot assessment motion was a mistake.10:01–14:38 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Outselling Competition Through Senior Talent and Brand Air Cover Jason asks a direct, probing question about how Gong defeated Chorus despite nuclear product parity. Jameson explains how intentionally raising quotas and OTEs allowed Gong to hire seasoned reps capable of selling directly to executive sales leaders.14:38–20:02 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Category Creation Mistakes, Champions, and Brand Traps Jameson reveals tactical mistakes Gong made early on, specifically noting how Chorus leveraged equity advisors inside target accounts to lock Gong out. Sam and Jason reflect on the power of raving fans and the branding trap of prioritizing valuation hype over product clarity.20:02–29:34 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Leading Sales Teams Through Economic Headwinds and Downturns Jason aggressively pushes back on the prevailing tech panic narrative, arguing that current performance feels terrible only because 2021 comps were historically abnormal. Jameson explains how Gong manages rep morale, focuses on controllable inputs, and restructures ROI messaging for CFO scrutiny.0:05–4:07 · Jason pushing back 0/10 Introductions and Early Insights on Sales Call Quality The conversation opens with warm historical recollections among long-time colleagues. Jason shares an early observation from the Adobe acquisition regarding the shocking variance in sales call quality across reps before call-recording software existed.4:07–10:01 · Jason pushing back 1/10 Category Creation and Fast Time-to-Value at Gong Jason brings historical context about software budget expansion rules relative to Salesforce contract sizes. Jameson educates the hosts by clarifying that Gong was never self-serve PLG and admits that abandoning their guided pilot assessment motion was a mistake.10:01–14:38 · Jason pushing back 1/10 Outselling Competition Through Senior Talent and Brand Air Cover Jason asks a direct, probing question about how Gong defeated Chorus despite nuclear product parity. Jameson explains how intentionally raising quotas and OTEs allowed Gong to hire seasoned reps capable of selling directly to executive sales leaders.14:38–20:02 · Jason pushing back 1/10 Category Creation Mistakes, Champions, and Brand Traps Jameson reveals tactical mistakes Gong made early on, specifically noting how Chorus leveraged equity advisors inside target accounts to lock Gong out. Sam and Jason reflect on the power of raving fans and the branding trap of prioritizing valuation hype over product clarity.20:02–29:34 · Jason pushing back 4/10 Leading Sales Teams Through Economic Headwinds and Downturns Jason aggressively pushes back on the prevailing tech panic narrative, arguing that current performance feels terrible only because 2021 comps were historically abnormal. Jameson explains how Gong manages rep morale, focuses on controllable inputs, and restructures ROI messaging for CFO scrutiny.

speaking balance: gold is Jason, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Jason 29.9% · guest 70.1%0:00 · Jason 29.9% · guest 70.1%3:00 · Jason 0% · guest 100%3:00 · Jason 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Jason 47.8% · guest 52.2%6:00 · Jason 47.8% · guest 52.2%9:00 · Jason 22.2% · guest 77.8%9:00 · Jason 22.2% · guest 77.8%12:00 · Jason 29.5% · guest 70.5%12:00 · Jason 29.5% · guest 70.5%15:00 · Jason 30.5% · guest 69.5%15:00 · Jason 30.5% · guest 69.5%18:00 · Jason 0% · guest 100%18:00 · Jason 0% · guest 100%21:00 · Jason 16.3% · guest 83.7%21:00 · Jason 16.3% · guest 83.7%24:00 · Jason 59.8% · guest 40.2%24:00 · Jason 59.8% · guest 40.2%27:00 · Jason 27.5% · guest 72.5%27:00 · Jason 27.5% · guest 72.5%30:00 · Jason 33% · guest 67%30:00 · Jason 33% · guest 67%33:00 · Jason 22.1% · guest 77.9%33:00 · Jason 22.1% · guest 77.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 27:30 Jameson dismisses lecture-style perspective sharing

Jameson pragmatically dismisses the idea that leaders can easily give young reps macroeconomic perspective, noting that trying to do so just makes you sound like an out-of-touch old man.

 Hardest push from Jason ▶ 23:38 Jason rejects the tech panic framing

Jason refuses the premise that current market conditions are catastrophic, arguing that teams lack historical perspective because 2021 was an unsustainable anomaly.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:48 Jameson clarifies Gong was never self-serve PLG

Jameson directly corrects Jason's hypothesis about Gong running a PLG motion, explaining why sales-assisted pilots were mandatory to focus customer implementation.

 Jason holds their own ▶ 26:15 Jason highlights pandemic-era sales complacency

Jason draws on deep enterprise experience to illustrate how reps hired during peak 2020 demand developed unrealistic expectations about sales velocity.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicJason as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementJason pushing backWhy
Introductions and Early Insights on Sales Call Quality 5100 The conversation opens with warm historical recollections among long-time colleagues. Jason shares an early observation from the Adobe acquisition regarding the shocking variance in sales call quality across reps before call-recording software existed.
Category Creation and Fast Time-to-Value at Gong 6511 Jason brings historical context about software budget expansion rules relative to Salesforce contract sizes. Jameson educates the hosts by clarifying that Gong was never self-serve PLG and admits that abandoning their guided pilot assessment motion was a mistake.
Outselling Competition Through Senior Talent and Brand Air Cover 6611 Jason asks a direct, probing question about how Gong defeated Chorus despite nuclear product parity. Jameson explains how intentionally raising quotas and OTEs allowed Gong to hire seasoned reps capable of selling directly to executive sales leaders.
Category Creation Mistakes, Champions, and Brand Traps 5511 Jameson reveals tactical mistakes Gong made early on, specifically noting how Chorus leveraged equity advisors inside target accounts to lock Gong out. Sam and Jason reflect on the power of raving fans and the branding trap of prioritizing valuation hype over product clarity.
Leading Sales Teams Through Economic Headwinds and Downturns 7424 Jason aggressively pushes back on the prevailing tech panic narrative, arguing that current performance feels terrible only because 2021 comps were historically abnormal. Jameson explains how Gong manages rep morale, focuses on controllable inputs, and restructures ROI messaging for CFO scrutiny.

Statements from this episode (11)

Insight
Blond: Deal Conversion Varies Dramatically Based on Which Rep Gets the Lead
“And the thing that you're referencing, Jason, that was a huge takeaway for me is it makes such a huge difference which sales rep gets the lead in terms of the probability of that deal closing. Like, you would think the product is what matters, but there is so …”
Sam Blond Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 2:55
Disclosure
Yung: Gong Erred by Abandoning Pilot Sales Motions and Has Returned
“A year ago or whatever, if we were more established, we started trying to move away from that pilot motion or that business assessment motion, and honestly, it was a mistake, and we've gone back to it more heavily now, especially in the current environment.”
Jameson Yung Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 8:10
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Yung: Gong and Chorus Were Initially Identical With No Clear Differentiation
“At the time I joined, they were pretty similar. Now they're demonstrably different and teams are different sizes, et cetera. But at that initial inflection point, when I joined, in fact, we didn't even really know what our differentiators were yet.”
Jameson Yung Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 10:43
Insight
Yung: Gong Beat Chorus by Hiring Senior Sales Reps With Higher Quotas
“You're talking to CROs and VPs of sales, like you can't have a really junior sales rep on the other end of the phone. And so raised quotas, raised OTE. And so I think the sales force that we built early on and the people that, that joined early to help sell we…”
Jameson Yung Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 11:24
Insight
Yung: Early GTM Wins Funded R&D to Create Gong's Product Differentiation
“The fact that we won go to market as early as we were, that allowed us to continue to invest in the product, grow the team, et cetera. So it kind of started feeding the differentiation of the product as well.”
Jameson Yung Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 13:35
What-if
Yung: Chorus Won Early Deals Over Gong by Giving Equity to Advisors
“One thing that, that chorus did. Did better than us. Is they did a really good job of getting advisors pretty early. They, I think they got through giving them some equity, but they insert these like champions inside of decent sized organizations that would bl…”
Jameson Yung Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 15:56
Insight
Blond: Zenefits Erred by Branding Around Fast Growth Rather Than Product
“Embracing this identity around sort of like fast growing tech company raised a bunch of money. That was a mistake. And I think the right thing to do or what to try and do is associate your company with what you do. Had we been known as, you know, the best heal…”
Sam Blond Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 18:24
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Yung: Gong Retains Ten Years of Cash Runway and Avoided 2022 Layoffs
“We're lucky enough to be in, in the group that has not had to do layoffs at this point. We've got 10 years of runway plus, and so we're in a good financial spot.”
Jameson Yung Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 21:02
Insight
Yung: Leaders Should Avoid Radical Quota or Compensation Cuts During a Downturn
“I think one of the most important things is just not to make some massive radical change, right? You still want to stabilize the team... We are trying not to kind of do anything that's really hard to undo, like changing people's quotas and changing comp plans …”
Jameson Yung Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 21:55
Insight
Lemkin: SaaS Downturn Performance Must Be Judged Strictly Against Direct Competitors
“You gotta know how your peer set is doing, because if you don't actually know how you're doing in these environments. If you're growing faster than your competitors and you've got 10 years of runway, everyone should get a Christmas bonus. If you have, if you a…”
Jason Lemkin Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 24:36
Assertion Contradicted
Lemkin: Salesforce Experienced Zero Customer Churn During the 2008 Financial Crisis
“There was no churn in 2008, 2009. There was none. But there, but NRR shrunk, right? But there was no churn. There was no churn in the worst downturn of my lifetime.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 7, 2022 ▶ 31:31
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