Sep 10, 2018 · 44m · how-i-built-this
Live Episode! New Belgium Brewing Company: Kim Jordan
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this live episode of How I Built This recorded at the Boulder Theater, host Guy Raz interviews Kim Jordan about co-founding New Belgium Brewing Company and scaling it from a bootstrapped basement hobby into an iconic, 100 percent employee-owned craft beer powerhouse.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 36.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 1.6 Guest teaching 1.5 Guest disagreement 0.9 Guy pushing back 0.4
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 35:06 Deflecting revenue transparency probe
When Guy tries to hold Kim to her own open-book policy to extract revenue numbers, Kim sharply quips, 'Well, yeah, when you get a job, I'll be happy to talk with you about it.'
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 35:03 Guy presses on open-book revenue figuresGuy playfully challenges Kim's refusal to publicly disclose revenue by questioning if that conflicts with her celebrated open-book management policy.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 29:58 GABF lacking Belgian beer categoriesKim educates Guy on how nascent American craft brewing was in the 1990s, revealing that GABF judges did not even evaluate their beers because no Belgian category existed.
Guy holds their own ▶ 34:03 Guy contextualizes scale backlash via Jim CookGuy brings substantive industry context by referencing Jim Cook of Boston Beer to challenge Kim on whether New Belgium faces pushback from craft purists for being too large.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Live Show Announcement and Upcoming Tour Dates | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Solo intro and host monologue outlining live show announcements, company background, and the founding mythology of New Belgium Brewing. | |
| Early Life, Political Activism, and Quaker Influences | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Guy asks about Kim's upbringing and attendance at major historical rallies; Kim clarifies that while she did not attend the MLK march, she marched with Cesar Chavez. | |
| Relocating to Colorado and Roots in Social Work | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Guy inquires about Kim moving to Colorado and entering social work; Kim explains how social work provided systems theory training valuable for business. | |
| Meeting Jeff Lebesch and the Birth of Fat Tire | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Kim recounts meeting Jeff Lebesch and his trip to Belgium inspiring Fat Tire, noting that early critics considered Fat Tire the worst name possible. | |
| Taking the Leap: Basement Brewery and Four Core Principles | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Guy questions taking a second mortgage on their house; Kim details their initial four core principles established during a Rocky Mountain hike. | |
| Bootstrapping Operations, Bottling, and Early Distribution | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy asks how beer was bottled at home; Kim details their bootstrap mechanical setup and reminds him that beer is an agricultural, live food product. | |
| Scaling Demands, Growing Family, and Credit Card Financing | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Kim describes pouring beer at the Great American Beer Festival while heavily pregnant and financing their early phase with maxed credit cards. | |
| Mid-Show Break and Sponsor Announcement | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | Guy asks about balancing parenting with launching the business, and Kim deadpans 'Cakewalk' before teasing Guy for falling for her sarcasm. | |
| Securing Bank Loans, Building Automation, and Expansion | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Kim recounts how a traditional banker bluntly dismissed her initial loan application before Jeff built custom automation to cut project costs. | |
| Recruiting Peter Bouckaert and Defining Belgian Craft Brewing | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Kim explains recruiting Belgian brewmaster Peter Bouckaert and notes that early American competitions didn't even have categories to judge Belgian-style beers. | |
| Leadership Transition, Divorce, and Radical Transparency | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Guy asks about Jeff stepping away and their divorce; Kim shares her philosophy on radical transparency and addressing the company openly about her divorce. | |
| Maintaining Authenticity at Scale and Quarter-Billion Revenue | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Guy cites Jim Cook's experience with craft beer backlash and presses Kim on company revenue using her open-book policy; Kim wittily replies he must get a job there first. | |
| Pioneering Employee Ownership and the ESOP Model | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Kim explains defying outside advisors to give forklift drivers equity through a phantom stock plan before fully converting New Belgium to a 100% ESOP. | |
| Gender Dynamics in Brewing and the Power of Hard Work | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Kim reflects on subtle gender bias across brewer boards, the necessity of standing one's ground, and the intersection of luck, hard work, and timing. |
Statements from this episode (16)
Jordan: Social work and systems theory are ideal business training
“But I would say that social work is a generalist degree, so you learn a lot about a lot of working with people. And it's also systems theory, and those two things were the perfect setup for the next thing.”
Jordan: Major US brewers lack instinct for the craft beer movement
“The big two brewers in this country make technically excellent beer, and I never want to sort of discount that, because they're very skilled at it, but they're not craft brewers, and they don't really have sort of that gut feel for how you might
Start a moveme…”
Jordan: Founders took out a second mortgage to start New Belgium
“We took a second mortgage out on our house.”
Jordan: Jeff Lebesch designed New Belgium's initial equipment, fabricated by dairy manufacturer
“Jeff designed all of our initial equipment, so that saved a lot of money. We had a dairy manufacturer in Denver fabricate it for us.”
Jordan: Brewing requires both gut instinct and science due to crop variations
“One of the things that I always want to remind people, though, is that beer is food. It's an agricultural product, and so you have changes in the characteristic of a hop, or the malt bill because, you know, it was a wet It was a dry year, so it really is an ar…”
Jordan: Liquor store offered gas money to customers fetching New Belgium beer
“Well, we were so small that there was a limit to how much we could make, but we could have sold a lot more. I mean, in Telluride, Telluride Liquors had a sign in the store that said, if you're going to Fort Collins, we'll pay for your gas if you'll stop at New…”
Kim Jordan: New Belgium Avoided Outside Equity to Retain Control
“No, which is also a fundamental thing for us. You know, I understand in some organizations people really need to sort of bring in outside investors, but for us, I really wanted to kind of have our destiny in our own control, and a bank doesn't want to run your…”
Kim Jordan: New Belgium's Facility Cost $20 Million
“Well, the building was about ten million, and then the equipment was another ten million.”
Jordan: New Belgium Was First US Brewery Specializing in Belgian-Style Beers
“We were the first brewery in the United States to specialize in Belgian-style beers.”
Jordan: Great American Beer Festival couldn't judge New Belgium for three years
“The first three years that we took our beer to the Great American Beer Festival, they didn't even judge our beers, because they had no categories for Belgian-style beers, so somebody took them home and had a great time, and, but, you know, like, we got these, …”
Jordan: Leaders should not pretend hierarchy and the boss do not matter
“I don't think that leaders should discount that. You know, you're like, oh, we're all equal, and it doesn't really matter who the boss is. No, in fact, it does matter who the boss is.”
Kim Jordan: Addressed New Belgium employees directly about her divorce
“I have stood up in front of them and talked about getting a divorce.”
Kim Jordan: New Belgium Brewing generates about a quarter-billion in annual revenue
“Yeah, I like to say a quarter billion.”
Jordan: Holds New Belgium equity only through the employee stock plan
“Except as an ESOP account holder within the ESOP Trust, just as my other co-workers are. I own that portion, but other than that, no.”