Oct 20, 2022 · 37m · how-i-built-this
HIBT Lab! Universal Hydrogen: Paul Eremenko
0:00 / 0:00
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of How I Built This Lab, Guy Raz speaks with Universal Hydrogen founder Paul Eremenko about pioneering modular green hydrogen capsules, aircraft retrofits, and clean-sheet designs to decarbonize commercial aviation.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 43.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 2.8 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 0.7 Guy pushing back 0.8
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 27:04 Eremenko's forceful assertion on OEM inevitability
Eremenko forcefully rejects the premise of OEM hesitation, asserting that Airbus and Boeing will have no choice because the world is literally on fire and launching a fossil-fuel plane in the late 2020s will be impossible.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 35:35 Raz doubts realistic timeline for OEM adoptionRaz pushes back against optimistic timelines, recalling his early Tesla test drive and stating he cannot imagine Boeing and Airbus adopting hydrogen airliners within ten years.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 19:38 Clarifying fuel cells versus batteries in electric aviationEremenko educates Raz by distinguishing battery-electric from fuel-cell electric systems, explaining how Toyota Mirai fuel cells generate electricity chemically without massive battery arrays.
Guy holds their own ▶ 20:30 Raz cites California consumer hydrogen prices and infrastructureRaz brings external market knowledge and specific fuel prices from Oakland, California to challenge whether hydrogen infrastructure can scale economically for aviation by 2025.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Paul Eremenko's Early Life, Pilot Dreams, and Upbringing | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Guy Raz asks standard biographical questions regarding Eremenko's youth, family background, and early interest in aviation. Eremenko answers warmly, sharing anecdotes about getting his pilot's license before a driver's license in Indiana. | |
| Legal Studies and Advanced Systems Innovation at DARPA | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Raz inquires about why Eremenko pursued a Georgetown law degree and his DARPA career. Eremenko explains the strategic value of understanding national security law and Pentagon procurement processes for complex aerospace systems. | |
| The Aviation Emissions Challenge and Airbus Leadership | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Raz and Eremenko discuss global aviation emissions exceeding Germany's total output, and Raz clarifies the difference between dirty hydrogen from methane and green hydrogen produced via electrolysis. | |
| Universal Hydrogen's Modular Capsule Logistics Solution | 2 | 4 | 1 | 0 | Raz asks about Universal Hydrogen's founding idea, and Eremenko reframes the conversation around core pain points in distribution logistics. Eremenko details the novel idea of treating hydrogen capsules as intermodal cargo rather than building pipelines. | |
| Commercial Roadmap: Regional Turboprops to Single-Aisle Fleets | 3 | 3 | 1 | 0 | Eremenko explains why narrow-body single-aisle aircraft like the A320 and 737 generate the bulk of aviation emissions despite regional ATR 72 turboprops being the entry target. Raz contributes by comparing these planes to reliable workhorse cars. | |
| Battery Limitations and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Mechanics | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | Raz asks about battery-powered commercial aviation, prompting Eremenko to explain energy density limitations of lithium-ion chemistries. When Raz asks about electric air taxis, Eremenko distinguishes battery-electric from hydrogen fuel-cell electric powertrains. | |
| Overcoming Infrastructure Bottlenecks with Modular Retrofit Kits | 4 | 3 | 0 | 2 | Raz brings up real-world pricing and infrastructure data for hydrogen cars in California to question the feasibility of a 2025 commercial aviation timeline. Eremenko responds by highlighting heavy industrial demand and retrofit kit deployments. | |
| Clean Sheet Aircraft Designs and Industry Collaboration | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Raz asks how Eremenko can be confident Airbus and Boeing will invest massive capital in clean-sheet designs. Eremenko insists they will have no choice because the climate crisis will make launching new hydrocarbon aircraft untenable by the late 2020s. | |
| Long-Haul Flight Concepts, FAA Certification, and Regulation | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Raz inquires about wide-body long-haul flights and state-level regulatory mandates. Eremenko breaks down volumetric storage challenges, blended wing body concepts, ammonia carriers, and close cooperation with the FAA. | |
| Decarbonizing Aviation and the Future of Private Flight | 4 | 2 | 1 | 3 | Raz pushes on climate impacts on aviation operations, questions whether private flight should be banned, and expresses skepticism that major OEMs will produce hydrogen airliners within a decade. Eremenko argues private flight should be decarbonized and affirms regional hydrogen flight will happen well within ten years. |
Statements from this episode (22)
Eremenko: Electric propulsion lagged in aviation due to strict weight and reliability demands
“Electric propulsion was just coming into its own for aviation. And it took longer than for cars, because everything for airplanes has to be lighter and more reliable. But batteries were becoming good enough, and motors were becoming lightweight enough, where y…”
Eremenko: Aviation traffic volumes double roughly every 15 years
“Aviation traffic volumes double about every 15 years.”
Eremenko: Global aviation produces more carbon emissions than Germany
“Aviation is a relatively small fraction but that few percent is still more than the country of Germany.”
Eremenko: Soviets flew the hydrogen-powered Tupolev 155 airliner in 1988
“The Soviets actually flew an airliner called the Tupolev one 55 on hydrogen and in 1988.”
Eremenko: Paris Agreement drove exponential cost decrease in green hydrogen
“And one of the effects that the Paris Agreement has had is a massively catalytic effect on the production of renewable electricity capacity globally. And that's what's been driving a massive, Exponential decrease in the cost of green hydrogen over the past yea…”
Eremenko: Building global airport hydrogen infrastructure would cost trillions
“You can't repurpose existing gasoline or kerosene jet fuel infrastructure. You got to recreate it from scratch, and hydrogen molecules are very small. So this is a fairly expensive proposition, and if you multiply it out by the scale of the commercial air tran…”
Universal Hydrogen plans to load modular hydrogen capsules like Amazon packages
“So our idea was let's turn hydrogen into cargo instead of jet fuel, right? So let's put hydrogen in these modular capsules and move these modular capsules the same way we move Amazon packages, right? So let's move hydrogen through intermodal freight. And when …”
Universal Hydrogen has raised just under $100M in capital
“That's about right. Yeah, just south of a hundred.”
Eremenko: The ATR 72 will be the first commercial hydrogen airliner
“The airplane we are specifically targeting as the first hydrogen airplane, and which will be the largest hydrogen airplane to enter service, will be the ATR 72, which is about a 50 to 60 passenger airplane, and flies about a thousand kilometers.”
Eremenko: Most aviation emissions come from narrow-body A320 and 737 fleets
“Most aviation emissions come from what's called single aisle or narrow body. And this is the A-three-twenty and the Boeing seven 37 family of aircraft. I was actually surprised, right? Because these are not the biggest airplanes and they're not the longest fly…”
Eremenko: Hydrogen narrow-body aircraft do not need blended-wing airframes
“The volume necessary to power the kinds of flights that these airplanes fly is quite manageable within the confines of an existing sort of tube and wing airplane configuration. You got to lengthen the tube a little bit. You have to add a few meters of length i…”
Eremenko: Lithium-ion batteries will never power planes larger than 10 passengers
“And lithium ion batteries, even if you take them to their absolute theoretical maximum, You are never going to fly an airplane that's bigger than about 10 people and a couple hundred kilometers distance.”
Eremenko: Second-generation electric air taxis will use hydrogen fuel cells
“I'm willing to bet as a second generation, after the first generation is battery powered, the second generation will be hydrogen fuel cell powered.”
Universal Hydrogen is backed by Fortescue Future Industries and Plug Power
“Two of the leading green hydrogen producers in the world are investors in our company, Fortescue Future Industries out of Australia and Plug Power out of New York.”
Universal Hydrogen expects to retrofit half the target fleet by early 2030s
“We would expect to be able to get through at least half that fleet by the early 20 thirties.”
Eremenko: Boeing and Airbus must choose hydrogen over hydrocarbons by late 2020s
“In the late 20 twenties, I think it will be absolutely impossible for either of those two companies to say, we're going to launch a brand new airplane that will burn hydrocarbons, right?”
Eremenko: Airbus is an investor in Universal Hydrogen
“And I'm pleased to say that Airbus is an investor in universal hydrogen.”
Eremenko: Long-haul hydrogen flight requires blended-wing airframes or ammonia storage
“It can. It absolutely can. The issue is volume, right? So those airplanes fly routes that are, you know, half the globe in range. And as a result, you need a lot of volume of hydrogen. And so in that case, you can move to a different airplane configuration alt…”
Eremenko: Universal Hydrogen will fly first retrofit ATR by 2025
“Yes, we are. The long lead item for that is FAA certification, and we have been quite conscientious about bringing the FAA on the journey with us, right? Making sure that we don't just design it and throw it over the wall and say, please certify this, right?”
Eremenko: Without hydrogen, cutting flight traffic will become only decarbonization option
“Today. It's a few percent of global CO two emissions very quickly. I think aviation will start to stick out as a sore thumb, right? As an industry that is incredibly difficult to decarbonize and doesn't have a credible decarbonization roadmap, at which point t…”
Eremenko: Commercial hydrogen flights will operate globally before 2032
“Long before a decade from now, guy, you will be able to fly on hydrogen with a major regional airline, both in the U S or in Europe or in other parts of the world. For a ticket price that will be equivalent or lower, with the comfort knowing that the airplane …”