Mar 27, 2023 · 1h 15m · how-i-built-this
Sun Bum: Tom Rinks
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Entrepreneur and creative designer Tom Rinks details his journey of mastering consumer psychology to launch iconic brands, endure a landmark $42 million legal battle over the Taco Bell Chihuahua, and build Sun Bum into a $400 million sun care powerhouse.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 32% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 3.9 Guest disagreement 1.2 Guy pushing back 1.2
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 58:04 Distinguishing Sonny the Ape from a monkey
Tom interrupts and firmly corrects Guy when he refers to Sonny as a monkey, pointing out the anatomical difference that apes lack tails.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 1:11:08 Guy probes Tom's reluctance to be a brand figureheadGuy synthesizes Tom's self-deprecating remarks into a sharper psychological insight about consumer expectations and founder alignment.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 5:53 Psychological sales targeting at Art Van FurnitureTom educates Guy on behavioral floor sales, illustrating how word choice and sales rep pairings were systematically varied depending on the customer's gender and demographic.
Guy holds their own ▶ 0:37 Synthesizing product design impact on consumer behaviorGuy demonstrates domain expertise during the monologue by citing peer-reviewed cognitive research from Psychological Science regarding package design over price sensitivity.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sales Foundations at Art Van Furniture | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Guy prompts Tom about his early career at Art Van Furniture. Tom explains the fundamentals of retail floor sales, citing David Ogilvy and demonstrating how his team psychologically tailored pitches depending on the buyer demographic. | |
| The Accidental Side Hustle of Surf Michigan | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Tom recounts how seeing surfers on Lake Michigan sparked a cartoon t-shirt idea that he bluffed his way into pitching to retail chain Meijer. Guy follows the narrative with supportive prompts and reacts to the surprising 1,800-unit initial order. | |
| Licensing and the Fab Five 'Slamdance' Boom | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy exhibits solid sports cultural knowledge regarding Michigan's Fab Five era. Tom explains how direct collegiate licensing worked before centralized agency models, culminating in his hit 'Slamdance' design. | |
| Creating the Psycho Chihuahua Brand Phenomenon | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Guy playfully questions the viability of Tom and Joe's early apparel concepts, and Tom candidly admits their first line failed completely before spotting Madonna with a Chihuahua and inventing Psycho Chihuahua. | |
| Pitching and Storyboarding for Taco Bell | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Tom explains licensing conventions and the 18-month collaboration with Taco Bell where they transitioned the character from cartoon to live-action storyboards before suddenly being ghosted. | |
| The Stolen Ad Campaign and Approaching Legal Battle | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy empathizes strongly with the emotional and financial strain of having an ad campaign stolen by a corporate giant. Tom reveals they would have settled for a modest sum early on due to the immense pressure. | |
| A Nonprofit Rebranding of Christian Media | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Tom describes collaborating with pastor Rob Bell to treat Christian messaging as a brand rehabilitation challenge through a non-profit video initiative. | |
| Federal Court Trial and $42 Million Verdict | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Tom details the federal courtroom drama in Grand Rapids where they rejected a last-minute settlement offer and won a $42 million verdict against Taco Bell. | |
| Founding Rinks Canetti and Crafting DeLeon Tequila | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Tom articulates the core branding philosophy behind Rinks Canetti and DeLeon Tequila, arguing that consumer purchases in lifestyle categories are driven entirely by desired personal identity. | |
| Discovering the Market Void in Sun Care | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Tom explains how evaluating a failed sunscreen project revealed an unserved void in beach culture, prompting a structured three-month brand creation methodology. | |
| Designing the Iconic Aesthetic and Sunny the Ape | 4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | Tom breaks down the disparate cultural inspirations behind Sun Bum packaging and character design, including the 'Elvis principle' of juxtaposing rebellion with approachability. | |
| Surf Expo Launch and the Cocoa Beach Origin | 3 | 4 | 2 | 1 | Tom gently corrects Guy on monkey versus ape terminology and explains the tactical rationale behind listing Cocoa Beach on packaging while operating out of snowy Michigan. | |
| Guerrilla Distribution and Necker Island Breakthrough | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Tom recounts the guerrilla marketing efforts of sales rep Michael Lucera and their strict full-display retail requirement that established immediate shelf presence. | |
| Stepping Aside for a New CEO and $400M Acquisition | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Tom describes his deliberate decision to step down as CEO in favor of seasoned executive talent to overcome financial scaling and international regulatory roadblocks. | |
| Privacy, Modesty, and Entrepreneurial Lessons | 5 | 3 | 1 | 3 | Guy probes into Tom's intentional obscurity and synthesizes the underlying psychological reasoning behind his reluctance to be the public face of his ventures. |
Statements from this episode (24)
Tom Rinks: Creativity fails in business unless you can sell your ideas
“There's a, I think his name's Ogilvy. Ogilvy and Mathers, he's like the father of marketing, I believe. He said something like, you know, in the modern world, you could be as creative as you want, but unless you know how to sell, you're just not going to make …”
Rinks: Art Van staff broadcast fake pickup calls to create buyer frenzy
“We'd say, you know, customer pickup for Johnson, door three, customer pickup for Smith, door five, just to get a frenzy going with nobody picking up anything, just to...”
Tom Rinks: Holding 400 college apparel licenses did not guarantee profitability
“So while at the end I had 400 and something licenses, while I had lots of licenses I wasn't super profitable.”
Tom Rinks: Apparel trends lose their cool once fathers start wearing them
“When a line gets popular, it's popular by the cool people, the college-age kids, the high schoolers, right, they start buying it, and then their younger brothers see them wearing it, and then they want to buy it, so then it gets a little younger. And so then t…”
Tom Rinks: Taco Bell collaborated with creators for 18 months before ghosting
“And we worked with them for 18 months. We were on the calendar of when it was going to happen. They were planning on testing it.”
Tom Rinks: Taco Bell's first three Chihuahua commercials copied his submitted storyboards
“They tested that ad in the northeast, which has happened to be where I was in Michigan, and I just lost it, you know, because it was the commercial that I'd written. You know, the first three commercials were our commercials, like we had storyboarded and share…”
Tom Rinks: Psycho Chihuahua shirt sales collapsed after Taco Bell ad campaign
“So even our shirts stopped selling because everybody wanted the Taco Bell Chihuahua shirts. You know, we were just a knockoff. So sales of that dropped off.”
Tom Rinks: We would have accepted a $200,000 settlement from Taco Bell
“If they would have offered us, they're gonna hate to hear this right now, but if they would have offered us 200,000, We'd have taken it.”
Tom Rinks: Taco Bell offered no settlement money during five-year litigation
“They didn't offer us one dime.”
Tom Rinks: Taco Bell offered multi-million dollar settlement right before federal trial
“The first time they offered us something was at the trial. It was just before it started. They had lots of lawyers on their side. We had our little three lawyers on our side, and the judge came out, everybody rose, the jury was in, and they went up and said th…”
Tom Rinks: Taco Bell appealed the $42 million verdict before settling
“No, no, they appealed right away. And then and then a few months later, they settled.”
Tom Rinks details the massive lawyer and agent fees on $42M payout
“I got, you know, the 33% of the lawyers, plus hard costs, 25% of my agent. Me and Joe split the rest, the government took the rest.”
Tom Rinks: Agency charged clients upfront service fees plus company equity
“The idea was we'll make, we know how to make brands, we'll make a brand for you, and you pay the fees for us to do that, and you give us a piece of your company.”
Tom Rinks: Consumer purchases are driven entirely by perceived status and self-image
“Everything you do is based on how this product or brand makes you feel about yourself or think other people feel about you.”
Tom Rinks: The 2009 sun care market lacked authentic, non-corporate brands
“I looked at the industry, I looked at what was happening in the space, and I saw Just a gigantic hole that you could drive through. Playtex had just bought Hawaiian Tropic a couple years earlier, so it was just all these big players. There was no authentic sun…”
Tom Rinks: Brand mascots outperform founders and celebrities because they avoid scandals
“Realizing the strength of a character, realizing the Budweiser frogs, the Eminem guys, the Energizer bunny. Yeah. They live forever. Mickey Mouse, right? They don't get old. They don't get DUIs like founders or celebrities or, right? They can just keep, they'r…”
Tom Rinks: Core surfers would have trapped Sun Bum in niche shops
“I think if surfers would have made this brand, they would have had two cross surfboards and called it Woody's, and it'd still be in surf shops today, and that would, or maybe it wouldn't be.”
Tom Rinks: Strong brand personalities juxtapose edgy provocation with wholesome humility
“It's this juxtaposition of edge, sex, good, kind, humble, like mashing all of that together. It's kind of what people want. It's that combo is what's, what's a really interesting personality for brands, for people.”
Tom Rinks: Sun Bum operated in Michigan while forwarding Florida customer calls
“We got a PO box in Cocoa Beach, and then we you know, all the Calls were getting transferred up, you know”
Tom Rinks: Richard Branson made Sun Bum the exclusive sunscreen on Necker Island
“Richard Branson and Joan. The end of the first year, they saw it and bought it for, to be their exclusive sunscreen on Necker Island.”
Tom Rinks: Creative founders often fail when forced to manage operations
“Creatives usually start companies, and then they, and they're really good at creative, that's why they make companies, and then they start hiring people, and doing the P&Ls, and managing people, and all the stuff they suck at, and by year three, the curve star…”
Tom Rinks: Sun Bum has grown into a billion-dollar brand
“Yeah, I mean, I think it is a billion dollar brand now”
Tom Rinks: Publicizing the Taco Bell lawsuit would have harmed later brands
“When I, you know, had the Taco Bell lawsuit, I went from being this creative guy to the guy that sued Taco Bell, so any interview, the only thing you could find at the time was Taco Bell lawsuit, so I was the, that's what people wanted to talk about, and that …”