Apr 4, 2024 · 29m · how-i-built-this
Less competition, more creation with Renée Mauborgne
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of How I Built This Lab, host Guy Raz interviews INSEAD professor and author Renée Mauborgne on the principles of Blue Ocean Strategy and non-disruptive creation, illustrating how entrepreneurs can build sustainable ventures by unlocking uncontested market spaces rather than engaging in destructive competition.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 40.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 4.6 Guest teaching 2.6 Guest disagreement 1.6 Guy pushing back 1.4
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 10:55 Renée dismisses brand hype without underlying utility
Renée pushes back against Guy's Liquid Death example, cautioning that relying purely on selling a dream quickly fades after a few years without real utility.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 9:54 Guy challenges Blue Ocean necessity using Liquid Death and Harry'sGuy directly questions the limits of Blue Ocean theory by presenting saturated red ocean successes driven entirely by clever branding.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:57 Renée breaks down the rigorous metrics required for Blue Ocean qualificationRenée methodically explains why Guy's Rivian example may not qualify as a true Blue Ocean without mass-market accessibility and affordability.
Guy holds their own ▶ 22:51 Guy details the Age Tech market using CES observationsGuy demonstrates deep business acumen by detailing the massive overlooked commercial potential of the aging demographic, citing specific data from CES.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Call to Action: Pitch Your Business on the Show | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Guy Raz sets the historical background and introduces Renée Mauborgne's research, outlining Blue Ocean Strategy concepts accurately. Mauborgne elaborates cordially on the genesis of Value Innovation and the origin of red versus blue oceans in an agreeable introductory flow. | |
| Blue Ocean Case Studies: Cirque du Soleil and Tesla | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Guy probes whether Rivian represents a Blue Ocean strategy in the automotive space. Renée gently pushes back that she would need to evaluate whether it offers accessible mass-market utility rather than just a high price point before classifying it as a blue ocean. | |
| Branding Strategy in Red Oceans | 6 | 4 | 3 | 4 | Guy brings up Liquid Death and Harry's to challenge the core framework, asking if pure branding can trump product function in red oceans. Renée counters that branding alone is fragile unless backed by genuine utility and price leap value. | |
| Blue Ocean Shift: Startups vs. Established Companies | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks about structural advantages between incumbents and startups, and mentions short-term flip founders versus long-term builders. Renée details the human psychological hurdles inside large corporations versus startup mindsets in a collaborative tone. | |
| Non-Disruptive Creation vs. Market Disruption | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Guy points out that major modern successes like Netflix and Amazon are famously disruptive, asking whether disruption is truly problematic. Renée clarifies that her theory does not seek to displace disruption, but rather expand innovation to include non-destructive creation. | |
| Discovering Untapped Markets from Prodigy Finance to Age Tech | 6 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Guy contributes his firsthand observation from CES regarding AARP and the massive potential in Age Tech. Renée enthusiastically agrees and builds upon his point, adding further non-disruptive sectors like eSports and microfinance. | |
| Practical Insights: Never Outsource Your Eyes and AI's Future | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Guy asks practical guidance questions and explores the future role of AI in non-disruptive innovation. Renée shares advice warning entrepreneurs to never outsource their eyes and to direct AI toward net job creation rather than mere headcount reduction. |
Statements from this episode (10)
Mauborgne: Strategy Should Focus on Creating New Markets, Not Just Competing
“If you look at what strategy historically has always been, it's been about how do you compete, how do you analyze an existing industry, benchmark the competition within it, and position yourself in that industry in order to succeed. So that was the one half, a…”
Mauborgne: Benchmarking competitors drives industries into commoditization and imitation
“And one of the fundamental keys in Blue Ocean is that the more you focus on benchmarking your competition, we do that in an intent to stand out. But ironically, it helps us commoditize our own industry, and we end up in a continuous drive of imitation, driving…”
Raz: Rivian is the current gold standard for electric trucks
“Tesla has a car and Ford has one, but they really are kind of the gold standard for electric trucks at the moment.”
Raz: Liquid Death reached nearly $200M in revenue within two years
“And Mike Cesario entered that saturated market, and you know, within two years, they're close to two hundred million dollars in revenue.”
Mauborgne: Brand strength is determined entirely by price versus utility
“We would argue that your brand is determined by your price versus the utility that you offer. When my price versus utility that I offer is dramatic and I offer a leap in value at a reasonable price point, I automatically have brand, I Automatically get people …”
Mauborgne: Established companies struggle more with Blue Ocean shifts due to loss aversion
“We see it as effective both in small companies and in large companies, and I would say for established companies, some of the old ways of thinking and humanness and the fear inside of it, overcoming that in an organization to make that shift is a little bit ha…”
Mauborgne: Pet Halloween costumes market is worth $500 million
“So pet Halloween costumes is such a silly example. It's worth five hundred million, right?”
Mauborgne: Unaddressed everyday frictions offer opportunities for non-disruptive markets
“What we don't realize, I think, often is how many problems that we take for granted that we think is just a part of life, something to put up with, that actually we can set about and start to address it to create a new market that doesn't disrupt anyone else.”
Mauborgne: Successful Blue Ocean creators never outsource user research
“Most of the companies that create blue oceans, they never outsource their eyes. The power of directly observing, directly having conversations.”
Mauborgne: Directing AI at productivity causes short-term job displacement
“As long as we're using technology, AI, and we direct it at productivity, which is important, and while there may be new jobs created in the medium to long term, usually disruption in the short to medium term, Starts to let even more people go.”