Jul 8, 2024 · 1h 4m · how-i-built-this
Ouidad hair products: Ouidad Wise
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of How I Built This, host Guy Raz interviews entrepreneur Ouidad Wise about how she pioneered specialized care for curly hair, transforming a niche Manhattan salon and homemade formulas into a nationwide consumer brand alongside her husband Peter.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 36.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 1.4 Guest teaching 1.4 Guest disagreement 0.3 Guy pushing back 0.1
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 10:20 Defying cosmetology school orthodoxy
Ouidad describes openly challenging her beauty instructor, arguing that educators only enforced straightening because they lacked understanding of natural curl textures.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 43:21 Raz challenges Ouidad's focus on salon service over productsRaz questions why Ouidad continued a punishing salon routine instead of pivoting entirely to the far more scalable and lucrative consumer hair product business.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 43:36 Educating Raz on why salon styling was non-negotiableOuidad firmly corrects Raz's assumption, explaining that abandoning salon clients would have stripped the soul and foundational trust out of the entire brand.
Guy holds their own ▶ 44:37 Raz analyzes product-market fit in underserved nichesRaz articulates the broader business framework of product-market fit, contextualizing how major legacy brands overlooked a massive demographic opportunity.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Podcast Newsletter Launch Announcement | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Introductory segment consisting of housekeeping announcements, an introductory teaser quote from Ouidad, and Raz's background narrative introducing Ouidad Wise. | |
| Emigration from Lebanon and Youth in Rhode Island | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Raz asks open questions about Ouidad's emigration from Lebanon to Central Falls, Rhode Island, and her school experiences, listening closely as she shares childhood memories. | |
| Cosmetology School and Challenging Industry Norms | 2 | 3 | 1 | 0 | Ouidad explains how standard cosmetology schooling neglected curly hair entirely, recounting how she pushed back against teachers to treat natural curls. | |
| Mentorship in Providence and Personal Independence | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Ouidad shares how she moved out on her own against her traditional mother's wishes and honed her trade under David Schwery, who advised her not to force curly styling on reluctant clients. | |
| Commercial Styling Gigs and Freelance Freedom | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Raz asks about her styling work in high-profile entertainment shoots in New York and her decision to reject a restrictive 10-year contract in favor of freelance autonomy. | |
| Meeting Peter and Deciding via Coin Toss | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Ouidad shares the colorful story of meeting Peter at a restaurant, dating, and deciding whether to open a salon or restaurant by flipping a coin. | |
| Securing Funding and Launching Ouidad Salon | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Ouidad details pitching skeptical bank loan officers who dismissed the curly hair market, and eventually obtaining an SBA loan to build out her first salon. | |
| Mid-Roll Teaser: A Developing Secondary Business | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Mid-roll break transition and recount of the salon opening to silence until Peter's flyer campaign brought in influential clients like Condé Nast editors. | |
| Creating Deep Treatment and Mail-Order Expansion | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Raz and Ouidad discuss how she concocted Deep Treatment without harsh oils or silicones, which unexpectedly launched their mail-order direct response line. | |
| Industrial Manufacturing and Commuter Family Life | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Ouidad details partnering with Mana for large-scale manufacturing and the split-family commuter dynamic between Connecticut and New York City for 16 years. | |
| Mid-Roll Break and Listener Voice Memo | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Raz presses Ouidad on why she didn't abandon the salon to focus 100% on high-margin product sales, prompting Ouidad to explain that hands-on client connection was the core soul of the company. | |
| The September 11 Sanctuary and Cancer Battle | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Ouidad reflects on providing refuge during 9/11, enduring breast cancer surgery and treatment, and negotiating an investment deal with private equity while guarding her salon domain. | |
| Brand Sale, Pro Bono Consulting, and Marriage | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Ouidad describes post-exit life, offering pro bono business mentoring to women stylists and entrepreneurs, and reflecting on her long marriage with Peter. | |
| Reflections on Success and Lifelong Brand Pride | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Raz asks the standard question on luck versus hard work, and Ouidad concludes with an anecdote about still rearranging retail shelves in Ulta. |
Statements from this episode (13)
Ouidad Wise: 1970s salons required curly hair to be blown straight
“That's all they knew. At the time, the media, the newscasters, all the everything, the magazines were all blonde hair blown out and straight. Maybe some were brunette. Once in a while, you get a redhead, and if somebody came in with curly hair, the first thing…”
Wise: Rejected 10-Year Exclusive Agency Contract Early in Career
“So they had asked me to sign a 10 year contract to which I would be on there. I couldn't do anything and just work with them. And so I refused to sign a contract, and I was thrown into the streets.”
Ouidad Wise and husband chose salon over restaurant via coin toss
“And then finally we came up with the idea. We'll flip a coin. If it's heads, It's salon. If it's sales, it is actually a restaurant, and we swore to each other we won't put our hands behind our back, cross our fingers, none of that, be really fully committed, …”
Ouidad Wise: Over 60% of people worldwide have curly hair
“Over 60% of people in this country have all over the world have curly hair.”
Ouidad: SBA provided $25,000 grant to help launch original salon
“Reagan was the president and he had just passed the law where he was allowing the SBA, which is the small business administration to grant little money for immigrant people to be able to open their businesses. And they gave us 25,000 dollars”
Ouidad Wise banned staff from speaking to each other before clients
“Everything was catered around the customer. Every little detail was thought about how we serve them. How we weren't allowed to speak to each other in front of the clients. We did a lot of eye signals because it was their space. We weren't allowed to pass anyth…”
Ouidad Wise: No commercial curly hair products existed in the 1980s
“And there was nothing for curly hair out there, because the only thing that were out there that people knew how to manage their hair with was to put oil on it.”
Ouidad grew early direct-response business via client catalogs and magazine ads
“We printed up a catalog for our own clients, and then once it started, we started making a little bit more money we can afford to advertise. We started advertising in back pages of magazines where they have that, like, small eighth of a page ad, and we used to…”
Ouidad Wise lived apart from her family on weekdays for 16 years
“I, in return, stayed in the city for five days and went home on the weekends. So I would get on the train early Tuesday morning, get to New York, stay in New York till Saturday after work, get on a train, and go back to Connecticut. And we did that for almost …”
Ouidad Wise: Properly served curly hair clients remain loyal for life
“A curly hair client becomes a client for a lifetime.”
Wise: L'Oréal, Unilever, and Bumble and Bumble sought curl partnerships
“And then hair companies started coming after me and L'Oreal wanted me to work with them with their Garnier line and Bumble and Bumble were there. And then all of a sudden a lot of companies, Unilever I worked with. To help out with their product line in Latin …”
Ouidad Wise banned her private equity partners from entering her salon
“And my poor partners were not allowed to set Foot in the salon. They were only allowed to be in the corporate office and whatever discussion they wanted to do was in the corporate office. No one was allowed to come into the salon. That was my domain, my kingdo…”
Ouidad Wise: Expanding niche hair SKUs fails without active consumer education
“And it took them Five years to understand in order for those extra SKUs to be sold, you couldn't just place them on the shelf. They had to be educated because they need to understand it, and you know, when you partner with an equity firm, they come in with the…”