Sep 17, 2024 · 1h 39m · bigdeal
Communication Expert: Master the Secret Art of Charisma & Influence | Vanessa Van Edwards
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Behavioral investigator Vanessa Van Edwards joins Codie Sanchez to break down the science of charisma, nonverbal cues, and persuasive communication for entrepreneurs and leaders. Through practical frameworks and real-world pitch analyses, the episode outlines how to master vocal power, balance warmth and competence, and build authentic professional influence.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Codie holds 26.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Codie as informed peer 4.5 Guest teaching 7.5 Guest disagreement 1.2 Codie pushing back 0.1
speaking balance: gold is Codie, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 31:18 Challenging Distrust Cues vs Vulnerability
Vanessa directly pushes back on the assumption that nervous cues simply undermine trust, clarifying that combined with high competence, self-touching conveys relatable vulnerability.
Hardest push from Codie ▶ 31:18 Codie Pressing on Face-Touching ContradictionCodie interrupts to challenge the paradox of Mel Robbins touching her face, pointing out that face-touching was previously categorized as a signal of untrustworthiness.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 1:04:30 Dan McAdams Three Levels of ConnectionVanessa lays out a comprehensive psychological framework moving from general traits to personal concerns and internal self-narratives (Hero, Healer, Victim).
Codie holds their own ▶ 11:44 Codie's Church Priming AnalysisCodie breaks down an architectural and rhetorical case study from church services to demonstrate real-time psychological priming and employee leadership.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Codie as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Codie pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Pitching Lessons from the Ring Shark Tank Pitch | 3 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Codie introduces the Shark Tank clip of Ring's founder to set up a case study. Vanessa breaks down the exact micro-flaw in Jamie Siminoff's vocal inflection that lost him the deal, educating Codie on question-inflection pitfalls. | |
| The Power of Downward Inflection and Vocal Power | 4 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa cites doctor malpractice studies and demonstrates downward inflection, contrasting it with vocal power examples from Barack Obama. Codie actively engages and asks how to translate these vocal cues into leadership and home dynamics. | |
| Emotional Contagion and Starting Meetings with Purpose | 6 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Codie demonstrates expertise by sharing a detailed real-world observation about behavioral priming in church messaging. Vanessa validates Codie's insight and elaborates on emotional contagion in team meetings. | |
| Juicing Dopamine with Purposeful Conversation Starters | 5 | 8 | 2 | 0 | Vanessa explains the neurochemistry of dopamine triggers in conversation, strongly advising against asking people what they do. Codie quickly internalizes the concept and reflects on how default phrasing creates conversational traps. | |
| Nonverbal Warmth vs. Competence in First Impressions | 4 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa breaks down the scientific breakdown of warmth versus competence cues, demonstrating the slow triple nod and head tilts. Codie follows along closely, connecting the concepts to her personal perception and Vanessa's book cover. | |
| Embedding Warmth and Competence Across Business Assets | 5 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa explains how warmth and competence words must be systematically balanced across emails, slide decks, and landing pages. Codie candidly evaluates her own tendency to over-index on competence. | |
| The Curse of Smart People in Sales and Advertising | 6 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Codie shares her marketing methodology of studying long-running Facebook ad library campaigns. Vanessa uses this to explain the curse of smart people who rely entirely on competence rather than warmth and trust. | |
| Distrust Cues, Authentic Selling, and Documenting Work | 5 | 7 | 2 | 1 | Codie questions why face-touching conveys vulnerability when it is conventionally seen as untrustworthy. Vanessa clarifies that Cornell research proves perceptual cues of nervousness can build relatability if competence is already established. | |
| Managing Fear, Social Contagion, and Introvert Energy | 4 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa presents research on fear-sweat olfactory contagion and outlines the energy management needs of ambiverts and introverts. Codie synthesizes how leaders can manage preparation to avoid fear contagion. | |
| Hiring Strategy: Behavioral Interviews and ABCD Work | 5 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa details ABCD work delegation and behavioral interviewing to avoid hiring clones. Codie and Vanessa agree on the psychological costs of maintaining ambivalent relationships over clearly difficult ones. | |
| Promo: Business Buyer Assessment and Resource Tool | 2 | 8 | 1 | 0 | After an opening host promo for a business buyer tool, Vanessa dives into statistical lie detection cues, explaining body incongruence like nodding 'no' while saying 'yes'. | |
| Identifying and Resolving the Contempt Microexpression | 4 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa details the contempt microexpression, citing John Gottman's 93.7% divorce prediction research. She coaches Codie on how leaders should investigate subtle contempt before it festers into resentment. | |
| Mirror Neurons and Authentic Emotional Contagion | 4 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa outlines mirror neuron activation and Dr. Barbara Wild's smile contagion research, showing how gender stereotypes influence baseline warmth and competence perceptions. Codie asks how modern workplace expectations have shifted. | |
| Men in Leadership: The Dangers of Emotional Muting | 4 | 8 | 2 | 0 | Vanessa points out the dangerous habit of male leaders muting their facial expressions to seem stoic, which triggers anxiety via the still-face effect. Codie humorously relates this to her husband. | |
| The Science of Hand Gestures on TED and Public Stages | 3 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa unpacks her research on viral TED Talks, proving top speakers use over 400 hand gestures in 18 minutes. Codie enthusiastically participates in a live hand-brain cognitive experiment. | |
| Internal Marketing: Pitching Painkillers Over Vitamins | 6 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Codie brings up the challenge of internal marketing within growing companies. Vanessa delivers the distinction between selling organizational initiatives as vitamins versus immediate painkillers. | |
| Three Levels of Connection and Relationship Self-Narratives | 4 | 9 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa shares Dan McAdams' three levels of connection and categorizes the three self-narratives (Hero, Healer, Victim). Codie listens attentively as Vanessa provides practical application tools. | |
| Applying Strategic Questions to Strengthen Relationships | 5 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa gives examples of applying level-three questions to friends and romantic partners, while Codie warns about pacing the questions so dates don't feel like high-pressure interrogations. | |
| Mid-Roll: Audience Engagement and Podcast Reviews | 3 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Following a mid-roll call for podcast reviews, Vanessa shares an entertaining vulnerability story about introducing herself as a 'recovering awkward person' to a circle of high-status Austin VIPs. | |
| Crafting a Logline with Vulnerability and Credibility | 6 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Codie explains how self-deprecating phrasing can accidentally diminish professional credibility. Vanessa agrees and provides the 'logline' and 'blank turned blank' storytelling frameworks. | |
| Complimenting the Audience and Writing for Impact | 6 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Codie shares how Vanessa's editorial feedback made her book chapters reader-centric rather than data-heavy. Vanessa outlines her principle of aggressively complimenting the audience across all media. | |
| Saying No with Grace: Radical Transparency and Systems | 6 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa details how she protects her energy by blaming systems or declaring sabbaticals. Codie articulates the managerial value of teaching teams shadow-influence boundary setting. | |
| The Science of Likability: Aggressively Liking Others | 3 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Vanessa reveals high school popularity research showing that likability is directly predicted by the number of people one aggressively chooses to like. Codie embraces the paradigm shift. | |
| Embracing Personal Quirks and Shared Eccentricities | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Codie and Vanessa engage in playful banter over Harry Potter Hogwarts houses, personal fashion quirks, and Codie's need for non-work hobbies, concluding with Codie's closing solo takeaway on communication. |
Statements from this episode (40)
Van Edwards: Great Ideas Fail to Sell Without Proper Pitching
“And that is the problem, is I think a lot of business owners have amazing ideas, doesn't matter how good your idea is, if you don't know how to pitch it will not sell.”
Van Edwards: Investors Judge Trustworthiness Before Hearing a Pitch's Opening Line
“Here's a big mistake that people make when they're pitching. Pitching on stage, pitching on a video call, pitching to an investor, is they prep their pitch and not their first impression. But people decide how smart you are, how trustworthy you are, and if the…”
Van Edwards: Upward Inflection on Pricing Causes the Lowest Close Rates
“You ask your number. You're telling people, I don't really believe this number and neither should you. Those people have the lowest close, lowest, lowest close rates, the biggest pushback, and also people lack confidence in you.”
Van Edwards: Doctors rated lowest in warmth and competence face highest malpractice lawsuits
“The doctors who had the lowest ratings in warmth and competence had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits.”
Van Edwards: Calling a Game 'Community' Doubled Shared Profits in Priming Study
“Everyone who was told they were playing the Wall Street game shared an average of a third of their profits. People who were told they were playing the community game shared two thirds of their profits.”
Van Edwards: Label Calendar Invites by Desired Behavior to Prime Attendees
“Call it what you want them to do in that meeting. You want a strategic meeting? Call it strategic goal setting meeting. Collaboration team session. Accountability call. That, that way every single time someone opens their calendar, they're literally being prim…”
Van Edwards: Extroverted leaders risk losing employees by violating introvert boundaries
“Extroverted leaders sometimes can actually turn off employees and lose them. If they push them out of their introvert boundaries.”
Van Edwards: Asking 'What do you do?' shuts down conversational engagement
“When you ask someone, what do you do? First of all, it's a social script. You just told their brain, go on autopilot. I'm going to ask the same boring questions as I always ask. And second, if someone is not defined by what they do, they are answering on autop…”
Van Edwards: 82% of human impressions are based on warmth and competence
“Research has shown that 82% of our impressions of people are based on two traits. Warmth and competence.”
Van Edwards: A triple nod causes conversation partners to speak 67% longer
“When you do a triple nod, research shows that I will speak 67% longer.”
Van Edwards: A head tilt immediately softens perceived demeanor and conveys warmth
“A head tilt immediately softens you. It immediately adds more warmth. That's a small warmth cue.”
Van Edwards: Casper Succeeded by Balancing Warmth and Competence in Marketing
“Casper mattresses is an interesting one. Like, they kind of took the mattress market by storm. And they could have had better mattresses, sure, but their marketing was a perfect blend of warmth and competence.”
Van Edwards: Important Emails and Landing Pages Must Blend Warmth and Competence
“And so when you're writing important emails, not all the emails, there should be a blend of both warmth and competence. Your LinkedIn profile should be a blend of warmth and competence. Your landing pages should be a blend of warmth and competence.”
Van Edwards: Competence without warmth makes audiences suspicious
“In fact, the research says, and this is a quote, competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. People will be suspicious of your ideas and your numbers if you do not know how to add warmth cues, and that is what you are struggling with, is you kn…”
Sanchez: Long-running Facebook ads reliably indicate working marketing campaigns
“If the ads have been running for a long period of time, you know that the ad has been working. So if you look at the brand new ads, I don't know, maybe they work, maybe they don't, but if they've been running for a few months, okay, this ad is working.”
Van Edwards: Wiseman Study Shows Product Demonstrators Sell More Making Clumsy Mistakes
“There's studies on this where Dr. Richard Wiseman had a model try to sell a blender in a mall, ok? A blender. And he did two trials of this experiment. One where she did a demo of the blender. Hi, good morning folks. We're going to demo this blender for you. S…”
Van Edwards: Cornell study found four specific nonverbal cues trigger distrust
“I think Cornell found that there were four behaviors, non-verbal behaviors that trigger untrustworthiness, like make you not want to trust a person. Touching the face, or the hair is one of them. Touching the stomach rubbing your arms, and I believe lack of ey…”
Van Edwards: Never put introverted team members on the spot for collaboration
“Your introverts never put them on the spot for collaboration. That's an insult to them, right? If you want them to collaborate or share their idea, send them an email ahead of time and say, hey, tomorrow we're doing a strategy session. I'm gonna be talking abo…”
Van Edwards: Hiring people with matching core strengths creates operational conflict
“The mistake that people make when they hire is they hire people who have their A work, and then they hire the person, and then you both want the A work. You are better off hiring someone who is opposite to you. Their D work is your A work is their D work, or i…”
Van Edwards: Ambivalent 'frenemies' at work drain energy faster than toxic colleagues
“When we know someone is toxic or difficult, we are very clear in our head. We don't go to lunch with them. We don't need to catch up on the weekend. We know their strength and their skills, and that's what we go to them for. And then we create parameters aroun…”
Van Edwards: Study showed police with ambivalent coworkers take more sick days
“There's a study about this, so they did it with police officers, and they categorized everyone's relationships in this precinct, and they found that the officers who had more ambivalent relationships, like relationships with the coworkers, where they were like…”
Sanchez: No business leader has ever reported regretting firing someone
“Never have I had a leader go, dang it, I wish I hadn't let that person go.”
Van Edwards: Only 1 in 10 people can consciously activate upper cheek muscles
“Only one in 10 people can consciously activate these muscles up here.”
Van Edwards: Gottman predicts divorce with 93.7% accuracy using silent video
“He can watch a video, a silent video of a couple, and predict with 93.7% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years.”
Van Edwards: Contempt expressions often stem from confusion, not malice
“Sometimes people are contemptuous when they're confused. You get some people who are like, why don't I understand this? They're contemptuous about it. So sometimes just re-explaining it again, you don't see the contempt.”
Van Edwards: Princeton research shows default gender biases for warmth versus competence
“This is Dr. Susan Fisk's research from Princeton University. She found, she calls it the stereotype content model, which is that women, by default, are seen as higher in warmth and lower in competence. Men, by default, are seen as higher in competence and lowe…”
Van Edwards: Speaking Slightly Louder and Adding Breath Immediately Eliminates Vocal Fry
“If you have vocal fry, and you're like, how do I get rid of this? Just speak a little bit louder, it immediately gets rid of it. That is because the moment you add more breath, it gets vocal fry, gross, is your vocal cords rubbing together like crickets. That'…”
Van Edwards: Suppressing Nonverbal Cues Eliminates Perceived Warmth and Competence
“The problem with that is no cues is a cue in itself. We understand muting, like muting, as a problem with charisma. So when you are mute or you under express, it immediately gets rid of your warmth End your competence.”
Van Edwards: Viral TED speakers average over 400 hand gestures per talk
“We at our lab, I analyzed thousands of hours of Ted talks with my team looking for patterns. And what we found was the difference between the viral Ted talks and the least viral Ted talks were the most viral Ted speakers use an average of Over 400 hand gesture…”
Van Edwards: Leaders must pitch internal initiatives as painkillers, not vitamins
“You as a business owner can do vitamin things for your business. You can do things that are good for the business that have long term, short term pain, but long term game. Your team members aren't thinking that way. You're lucky if they're thinking six months …”
Van Edwards: Partners with a 'hero' self-narrative set relationships up for success
“The first one is my favorite. It's a hero self narrative. You want a hero if you can in a relationship. A hero self narrative is something like this. I have challenges and problems, but with hard work and grit and determination, I overcome them. And that is th…”
Van Edwards: Avoid romantic partners stuck in a victim self-narrative
“The last one is the one you want to watch out for, which is a victim self-narrative. A victim self-narrative starts like the hero. Challenges, mistakes, problems that they couldn't overcome. That no matter how hard they worked, They weren't able to change anyt…”
Van Edwards: How people talk to themselves reflects how they talk to you
“And if you're going to be with someone in a marriage or a friendship, you want to know how they're talking to themselves. Cause you know what? That's going to be how they talk to you.”
Van Edwards: Asking deep level-two questions too early ruins dating connections
“And actually that's a mistake that people make in dating is they are trying to speed up. They're like trying to speed up the connection. So they ask level two questions and the person is like totally freaked out.”
Van Edwards: Professionals Need a One-Sentence Logline Story as an Elevator Pitch
“A log line is like a one sentence Phrase that gets people hooked. And every movie in Hollywood comes in the logline. And so you should have a logline. It should be a one sentence hook to what you do, and it should be a story.”
Van Edwards: Business owners must eliminate any task or role not converting to revenue
“It's very important for a business owner to focus relentlessly on what is actually converting to your business. And I mean dollars, right? Like I have a tight team. Like we want to keep overhead as low as possible. Like if it is not converting, if a job role i…”
Van Edwards: Outsourcing Cut Email Time to Ten Minutes Every Other Day
“I figured out how to outsource it to my assistant, who is amazing. Shout out Carolyn. So that she can actually go through my inbox and do everything that needs to be done with a very precise system so that I'm spending now 10 minutes every other day on email a…”
Van Edwards: Declining Professional Requests by Blaming Systems Prevents Interpersonal Conflict
“Radical transparency and blaming a system. Blaming a system works so well. Sabbatical. Vanessa's not doing any speaking events in the fall. Sorry. Oh, you know, Vanessa's recovering from her book tour. She'll pick back up in December. That's a system. People c…”
Van Edwards: Sociological Study Finds Liking Others Predicts High School Popularity
“And there was one predictor across all the grades and all the high schools. Yes, there were popular kids who were athletic or smart, but there was one that all the popular kids across all the schools had. They had the longest list of people that they liked.”