Sep 20, 2025 · 3h 36m · wtf
Tira, Bombay Shaving Co., Inde Wild | WTF is Fueling India’s Beauty & Skincare Revolution? | Ep. 25 · Nikhil Kamath
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Host Nikhil Kamath convenes industry leaders Bhakti Modi (Tira), Deepa (inde wild), and Shantanu Deshpande (Bombay Shaving Company) to dissect the multi-billion-dollar evolution of India's beauty and personal care market. The discussion delivers an actionable startup masterclass covering brand building, manufacturing economics, modern Ayurveda, and the tension between mass volume and premiumization.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nikhil holds 16.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Nikhil as informed peer 4.0 Guest teaching 5.5 Guest disagreement 1.9 Nikhil pushing back 2.9
speaking balance: gold is Nikhil, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 3:00:40 Shantanu's Reality Check on Premiumization
Shantanu forcefully rejects the assumption of widespread premiumization, arguing that wealth remains trapped in the top single digit and brands fool themselves into seeing a consumption boom.
Hardest push from Nikhil ▶ 1:15:05 Host Rejects Perfume LayeringNikhil directly challenges the guests' premise of perfume layering, arguing that consumers pay premium brands for master perfumers' taste rather than altering the fragrance themselves.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 23:40 Bhakti Explains Price Tiers and ClassificationsBhakti clearly defines the industry's strict monetary boundaries across mass, mastige, premium, and luxury categories, correcting the host's broad assumptions.
Nikhil holds their own ▶ 3:08:30 Nikhil Dissects Quick Commerce Labor ArbitrageNikhil synthesizes high-level macro insights from his discussion with Uber's CEO to argue why quick commerce models risk margin collapse as labor costs and unionization rise.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Nikhil as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Nikhil pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Pre-Interview Banter and inde wild's Early Traction | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Friendly pre-interview banter covering personal connections, Bhakti's husband Tejas, and early metrics of Inde Wild. Nikhil probes lightly into founder background and international performance. | |
| Deepa's Journey from Boarding School to Global Influencer | 2 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Deepa details her personal trajectory from boarding school to law to global influencer and launching Inde Wild. Nikhil inquires about the relationship between personal branding and business conversions. | |
| Shantanu's McKinsey Background and Problem Framing with AI | 5 | 6 | 2 | 4 | Shantanu explains consulting value in problem framing while Nikhil challenges whether AI replaces it. The panel breaks down valuation multiples and category tiers, with Nikhil sharing his experience analyzing Minimalist. | |
| Salon Distribution Dynamics vs. Gen Z's At-Home Routines | 3 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Bhakti and Deepa contrast salon distribution dynamics with Gen Z's preference for at-home, instant routines. Deepa explains how Inde Wild reimagined traditional champi into a modern ritual. | |
| Market Scale, Colonial Hangovers, and Homegrown Pride | 4 | 5 | 2 | 4 | Nikhil questions whether Indian consumers still favor Western narratives over homegrown brands. Deepa and Bhakti explain the transition from colonial hangovers to Indian pride backed by European safety and quality standards. | |
| Startup Playbook with ₹2 Crore: Hero Products and Community | 4 | 6 | 3 | 3 | The panel debates building a business with ₹2 crore, stressing hero product strategy and authentic community. A lively debate emerges clarifying pure beauty definitions versus broader BPC figures. | |
| Fragrance Trends: Wardrobing, Clean Ingredients, and Gourmands | 3 | 6 | 1 | 2 | Shantanu, Deepa, and Bhakti walk through fast-growing fragrance trends including layering, wardrobing, clean formulations, and gourmand food notes. | |
| Distilling Community as Shared Identity and Emotion | 4 | 5 | 2 | 3 | The guests define community as emotional connection and shared identity rather than transactional customer service. Deepa discusses how Inde Wild taps into cultural patriotism and the modern cool-girl aesthetic. | |
| Brainstorming 'Dilip's' Startup: Finding the 'Why' | 5 | 5 | 3 | 6 | The group workshops a hypothetical startup for 'Dilip'. Nikhil pushes back against fragrance layering, arguing he pays perfumers for their taste rather than wanting to mix scents himself. | |
| Fragrance Economics, Pricing Tiers, and Omni-Channel Scale | 4 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Shantanu shares unit economics around Bombay Shaving Company's ₹999 perfume launch. The guests explain margins, packaging differences, and the potential to cultivate an Indian 'frag head' community. | |
| Global Supply Chains, US Tariffs, and the Ayurvedic Boom | 5 | 5 | 2 | 3 | The panel analyzes global supply chains, international tariffs, TikTok Shop dynamics in China and the West, and the booming global appetite for Indian Ayurvedic wellness. | |
| Influencer Playbook: PR Gifting and Micro-Creators | 4 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Shantanu and Deepa reveal creator gifting playbooks, highlighting conversion rates from unboxings and explaining why nano and micro-influencers deliver better ROI than paid megastars. | |
| Sampling Strategies, Minis, and Experiential Retail | 6 | 5 | 3 | 5 | Bhakti explains experiential store sampling and why India is the mini-size capital of the world. Nikhil challenges the commercial longevity of sustainability claims, suggesting the trend is waning. | |
| Skinimalism, Multi-Active Serums, and Wellness Rituals | 4 | 6 | 1 | 3 | Deepa and Bhakti detail skin minimalism and multi-active formulations that eliminate complex multi-step routines. Shantanu and Deepa discuss topical magnesium and sleep-support rituals. | |
| Korean Skincare Innovations and Manufacturing vs. White-Labeling | 4 | 7 | 2 | 3 | The guests explain Korean cosmetic technology, unique active delivery systems like PDRN, and why Indian heritage naturally owns global authority in hair care and Ayurveda. | |
| Skin Minimalism, AI Diagnostics, and Retail Realities | 4 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Nikhil proposes an AI-based photo diagnostic tool to simplify SKU selection, while Bhakti emphasizes that offline retail still drives over 80% of initial beauty purchases. | |
| Bhakti Modi on Her Retail Origins and Founding Tira | 2 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Bhakti Modi recounts her career from frontline retail at Timberland and inventory planning at Ajio to studying at Parsons and conceptualizing Tira around Goddess Rati. | |
| Curation on Tira and the Formula for Authentic Celebrity Brands | 4 | 5 | 1 | 3 | Bhakti discusses onboarding brands on Tira while Deepa and Shantanu evaluate what makes celebrity brands like Fenty, Rare Beauty, and HRX endure versus cash grabs. | |
| Deepa's Vision for Inde Wild: Global Representation and Identity | 2 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Deepa articulates Inde Wild's core purpose: putting Indian beauty on global Sephora shelves while resolving the cultural friction between traditional Ayurveda and modern clinical science. | |
| The Indian Consumption Landscape: Mass Realities vs. Premiumization | 5 | 6 | 6 | 4 | Shantanu challenges the premiumization narrative with stark volume data on mass shaving and toothpaste, clashing with Deepa and Bhakti who defend rising disposable income and woman workforce expansion. | |
| The Economics of Quick Commerce and Logistics in India | 7 | 4 | 2 | 4 | Nikhil cites his discussion with Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi to critique quick commerce unit economics and labor arbitrage vulnerabilities in densely populated markets. | |
| Shantanu Deshpande on Scaling Bombay Shaving Company Profitably | 3 | 6 | 1 | 2 | Shantanu details Bombay Shaving Company's path to ₹500 Cr profitable scale, moving from premium wet shaving into high-volume trimmers and entry-level products. | |
| Navigating Manufacturing, MOQs, Packaging, and Perfume Formulation | 3 | 7 | 1 | 2 | The founders outline actionable production steps, from visiting global trade expos like Cosmoprof to decoding back-of-pack contract manufacturers and leveraging open packaging molds. | |
| Core Founder Advice, Long-Term Compounding, and Reflections | 5 | 5 | 1 | 2 | The episode concludes with founder takeaways on resilience, white spaces, and Shantanu sharing Mukesh Bansal's insight that over 90% of lasting market value compounds in a company's second decade. |
Statements from this episode (61)
Modi: inde wild's Champi hair oil drives 50% to 55% of sales
“Which is her chumpy hair oil, which I think is easily, like, 50 to 55% of her sales.”
Kamath: WTF podcast takes zero sponsorships and collects guest money for charity
“See our podcast is very like, Non-monetary nature. We don't have advertising or sponsorship or any of that. In fact, I take money from people who are guests and we do a charity project at the end of it. So it's the opposite of a capitalistic venture.”
Deshpande: AI cannot yet help businesses frame and evolve strategic problems
“I don't think AI can help you frame problems, yet. Like a business needs to know how to frame the problem, and evolve, evolve the framing of the problem constantly.”
Deshpande: Top management consulting teams cost ₹2+ crore per month
“Couple of crores a month for a good team.”
Deshpande: Profitable beauty brands jump from revenue multiples to 40x EBITDA
“In beauty personal care, there is a, there is the moment of transition is when you become profitable. When you start going from four times revenue, five times revenue to 40 times forward EBITDA.”
Deshpande: Minimalist reached 480 crore revenue and a 3,000 crore valuation
“There were four 80 crores top line, 3000 crores net value.”
Kamath: Passed on Minimalist investment due to high valuation expectations
“I was reviewing their business to invest, you know, and I negotiated with them so hard. Like a year before this deal, a year and a half before this deal.”
Deshpande: Unilever is struggling to premiumize its mass-heavy brand portfolio
“Unilever is struggling to premiumize. All of the brands, Dove, Ponds, Fair and Lovely, everything is mass.”
Modi: Products between ₹700–₹1,000 are masstige; anything below is mass
“Between mass and mass stage, so you can take anything between 700 to a thousand as mass stage, and varies about plus minus hundred rupees on different categories, and then anything below that is mass.”
Bhakti Modi: Hair accounts for 70% of the beauty services industry
“If you look at the services industry, on the other hand it's all about hair. So skin and makeup services are not huge. 70%.”
Bhakti Modi: Professional hair brands in India start and thrive in salons
“In India particularly, all professional hair care brands have started in salons. If you look at Kerastase, they do majority of their business still through salons”
Modi: Global Brands Alienate Indian Consumers Without Relatable Representation
“Global brands are alienating you know, alienating Indian consumers when they don't see someone who looks like them in India.”
Modi: Lakme Leads Indian Color Cosmetics Market Over Maybelline and MAC
“It is still a Lakme and a Maybelline that dominates. So Lakme is still sitting on the top of the color cosmetics charts. There's Lakme, Maybelline and MAC.”
Modi: New Brands Must Launch With One Hero Problem-Solving Product
“I think that what I would You know, I would start with is a hero product. You need to have one solid product, and you need to be able to solve a real problem.”
Deshpande: Mosquito Repellent Drove ₹3 Crore of Mamaearth's ₹5 Crore Monthly Revenue
“So, Mama Arath was doing four or five crores a month, and they were doing three crores of mosquito repellent.”
Deshpande: Hair care is $7B–$8B in India, mostly hair oils
“Hair care is seven to eight billion. Of which majority is oil by the way.”
Deshpande: Indian skincare market is $6 billion including mass brands
“Skincare is six billion, which includes, by the way, Dove, Ponds, everything.”
Modi: India's beauty sector is growing at 10% to 11% annually
“So they're all growing between 10 to 13%, because beauty, beauty is growing at a 10%, 10 to 11%.”
Modi: 11-to-13-year-olds are the most impressionable and trend-aware beauty consumers
“They are now, you know, in that 11 to 13 age bracket, and they are the most impressionable age group now, and they're also the most exposed. I don't think when I was 11 or 12, I really cared about skincare. My mom just said, wash your face, and that's about it…”
Shantanu Deshpande: The fragrance industry is shifting towards unisex products
“Then the world is moving towards unisex, by the way.”
Deshpande: Minimalist Founders Originally Started a Custom Shampoo Business
“Minimalist's first brand was, these guys said, you tell me all the ingredients you want and all the stuff you want done, and we'll put it together and give you a personalized shampoo or a personalized body.”
Kamath: Selling fear of bad odor works better than promoting good scents
“Like, I feel like I can sell fear around bad smell. Much more than I can sell the incentive of good smell.”
Deshpande: TikTok's Chinese sister app Douyin accounts for 40% of retail
“Doyen, which is TikTok, is 40% of retail.”
Deshpande: Bombay Shaving Company achieved 5% organic post rate on 10,000+ PR kits
“Till date we've probably sent, 10 to 12,000, pre-samplers, to micro-influencers, macro-influencers, creators, and then cricketers, actors, television, etc. We've probably had 500 organic, 500 organic, yeah. Five percent.”
Bhakti Modi: Nano-creators drive higher conversion than mega-influencers
“I truly believe that the nanos and the micros get you a lot more traction, organic reach, and conversion versus, you know, using mega influencers. You use mega influencers for the awareness.”
Modi: Global beauty brands produce mini product versions specifically for India
“In beauty, the mini and travel size is just, it's a whole business on its own. And in fact, this, a Bobby Brown area manager told me this, that India is a mini capital of the world. Like global brands have produced their best sellers, particularly for India, b…”
Bhakti Modi: Tira stores feature vending machines giving bi-monthly samples
“So we have a vending machine that when you enter, even if you don't walk out with anything that you purchased, you walk out with a sample because, you know, we made it, we've gamified it. You know, you put in your number and you know, you your email address an…”
Deshpande: Paper Boat built its brand sampling on IndiGo flights
“The second one was Paper Boat in Indigo Airlines. Paper Boat was built as a brand, again, nostalgic taste, by distributing our samples on Indigo Airlines, and then it became something a part of the menu, and then.”
Bhakti Modi: Mini beauty products yield poor margins due to packaging costs
“Yeah, the margins are not great in minis because you have to make that much product and your packaging still cost me the same, so.”
Kamath: Elite shift away from sustainability will trickle down to consumers
“But for sustainability, I think the thought leaders of the world today are moving away from sustainability. And hence, I think it'll trickle down, permeate down to the consumer as well.”
Deshpande: Sustainability will differentiate brands for young Indian consumers
“India for sure, young consumers, urban, young, affluent consumers will care. It'll be a differentiator.”
Shantanu Deshpande: Gen Z skincare consumers are turning into 'Skinimalists'
“I think the Gen Z younger consumers are actually, what we are now starting to realize are Skinimalists.
Just give me what I need.
Don't give me extra.”
Shantanu Deshpande: Stress-relief skincare and magnesium roll-ons have exploded among Gen Z
“Another big trend in, in, in Gen Z, I think is also around stress management.
So skincare, like skinification of hair, for example, or skincare that helps you sleep better is hugely like magnesium roll-ons are like exploded.
Helps you sleep better.”
Modi: 80% of First-Time Beauty Purchases Happen in Offline Stores
“Consumers today still buy 80% of beauty for the first time in a store, in an offline environment, because the emotional touch, feel factor is still so huge in beauty”
Modi: Beauty Will Be 33% Online and 67% Offline by 2028
“By twenty-twenty-eight beauty will be 33% online and, ah, 67% offline.”
Kamath: Children of ultra-successful parents are often the unhappiest people
“The unhappiest people I know. Are people who have these really, really large figures as their parents? Because happiness is always relative and you get your validation when you get something beyond what they have. And if you start at that scale, like I could h…”
Modi: Footwear Retailers Should Follow the 'Three Box Rule' for Conversions
“It's a rule in the retail industry that for particularly for footwear. So if someone's coming to buy you know, buy one pair of shoes, you bring out three for them, because if you don't, they don't like that one, you sell them, you make them try the other two. …”
Modi: Tira Has 60% Women Leaders and 100% Maternity Return Rate
“We have 60% women leaders, and we have one of the highest diversity ratios, and, you know, we have, I have a hundred percent success rate in women having every, anyone who comes to Teera, Has a baby goes into their maternity leave and comes back.”
Modi: Rare and Fenty succeeded by championing authentic social causes
“Rare with the mental health impact and Rihanna with the, with inclusivity and diversity and really championing those two causes has made it, you know, it's gone beyond the founders. So now that cause and the brand has gotten related.”
Deshpande: HRX succeeded through founder involvement and Myntra distribution
“I think HRX did a very good job because I think Hrithik was involved. I think the product was good. I think the distribution with Myntra was outstanding. They did such a good job with that.”
Deshpande: Only 3% of India's 300 million shavers buy premium blades
“There are 30 crore shavers in the country. 30 crore, three hundred million people who shave. 15 crore of them use one rupee blades. 15 crore, half the market use one rupee blades. Seven to eight crore people go to barbershops. Five crore people use disposable …”
Deshpande: 70% of Colgate India's business comes from 10-12 rupee packs
“Look at Colgate. It's a 6000 crore company. 50% market share. The most successful penetration brand possible. 70% of the business comes from 10 to 12 rupee toothpaste.”
Modi: India's prestige beauty market is valued at $800 million
“The prestige market is 0.8 billion USD.”
Modi: Prestige beauty will reach 10% of India's market in 3-4 years
“Today, prestige is only four percent of the beauty market. As I was telling him, it'll be 10% in the next three to four years.”
Deshpande: Indian consumer brands can now reach 500 crore scale mostly online
“Today that number is now 500, you can build a good 500 crore business, 80% online, and some amount in modern trade, and still do well. Like we are 500 crores.”
Deshpande: Bajaj is the largest motorcycle seller in Africa
“We're the largest motorcycle seller in Africa. Bajaj has beaten Chinese motorcycle players.”
Modi: Tier-2 and tier-3 Indian cities offer 5x headroom for premium beauty
“And in fact, there is at least five X headroom, five X times headroom to grow in terms in terms of acquisition and you know, even premiumization, like a huge amount of prestige sales come from tier two and tier three cities. So we should not assume that those …”
Deshpande: Tier-2 city elites often have higher disposable income than metro elites
“So tier two India, if you in fact look at the top five percent households in a Ludhiana or a Nasik or a Coimbatore, will probably have much higher disposable income than the top five percent in a, let's say, Pune or an Ahmedabad. Because the cost of living is …”
Kamath: India's quick commerce total addressable market is maximum 60 million
“In India, I don't know. I don't know what the TAM is. I don't think it's much more than 50, sixty million people. If it's a large TAM. But not more.”
Kamath: Never Purchased From or Invested in Quick Commerce
“I've never bought all of them are my friends, but I've never bought from quick commerce. I've never invested in a quick commerce.”
Kamath: Delivery worker unionization will severely skew quick commerce unit economics
“When seven, eight players come into the foray, and they start unionizing, and they start asking for benefits at some point that cost to convenience math will get skewed and not for the better.”
Bombay Shaving Company reaches 500 crore INR net revenue profitably
“And today we are now 500 crores net. Profitable. EBITDA and PAT both.”
Bombay Shaving Company will exceed 2020-2021 annual revenue in EBITDA this year
“So we will do more EBITDA this year than the revenue in”
Deshpande: Men are hard to engage but easy to please; women reverse
“Men are hard to engage, easy to please. Women are easy to engage, hard to please. The fundamental difference in consumption.”
Bombay Shaving Company claims 15% of India trimmer market
“So we have 15% market share in trimmers all India. We sell 7000 trimmers a day. 7000 trimmers a day all India. Yeah. At a thousand rupee price point.”
Deshpande: Indian law mandates listing contract manufacturers on packaging
“The good part about India is because all the contract manufacturing is written on the back of pack.”
Deshpande: Fogg built a 1,000 crore business on product longevity
“And Fogg is a thousand crore business built off of great marketing and a product that lasts long.”
Deshpande: Building a meaningful company in India takes 15 to 20 years
“India is a country where you need 1520 years to find something meaningful.”
Kamath: All my investment funds are entirely perpetual with no fund life
“We run all perpetual funds. No fund life.”
Kamath: Premium beauty will grow significantly faster than mass segment
“Tomorrow we will care a lot more for how we look as a means of getting validation. So anything that aids that will likely grow, both in the mass and the premium segment, I think the affluent will probably adapt faster. So the premium will go significantly fast…”