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Aug 30, 2016 · 22m · top-founders

EP 402: 25 Years Old, $32 Million Raised, $11 Million 2015 Transaction Volume with Brian Wong of Kiip

Brian Wong · 11m spoken Nathan Latka · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top, host Nathan Latka interviews Kiip co-founder and CEO Brian Wong, exploring how he launched a mobile rewards advertising platform at age 19 and scaled it to over $32 million in funding and tens of millions in annual transaction volume.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 42.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.2 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 2.3 Nathan pushing back 3.7
05100:0010:0020:000:28–5:37 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Weekly Listener Giveaway Winner Announcement Nathan probes the mechanics of Kiip's business model to understand how revenue sharing and user engagement work. Brian clarifies that brands pay per engagement rather than for user emails.5:38–9:28 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Brian Wong's Early Career and First Seed Funding Nathan calls out Brian for brushing past how he met venture capitalists and tests the specifics of his seed investment round structure. Brian explains taking a priced equity round early on to avoid valuation friction later.9:28–13:10 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Financial Growth, Gross Margins, and High-Efficiency CPMs Nathan inspects Kiip's gross margins and questions how they can reach 63% on a 50/50 rev-share model. Brian breaks down programmatic backfill and explains how incremental engagement creates high eCPMs.13:10–16:46 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Founder Mindset on Equity, Dilution, and Opportunity Cost Nathan challenges Brian on dilution and whether he faces significant opportunity cost sticking with Kiip after co-founders left. Brian forcefully rejects the transactional premise, explaining why pre-exit cap table obsession wastes mental energy.16:46–19:13 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 Future Revenue Projections and Connecting with Brian Online Brian quickly gives future revenue targets before Nathan transitions into personal social handles and extended sponsor ad reads.19:14–21:12 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions During rapid-fire questions, Brian refuses to name a CEO he is shadowing due to confidentiality. Nathan pushes back to uncover details before Brian pivots to Evan Spiegel.0:28–5:37 · Guest teaching 4/10 Weekly Listener Giveaway Winner Announcement Nathan probes the mechanics of Kiip's business model to understand how revenue sharing and user engagement work. Brian clarifies that brands pay per engagement rather than for user emails.5:38–9:28 · Guest teaching 3/10 Brian Wong's Early Career and First Seed Funding Nathan calls out Brian for brushing past how he met venture capitalists and tests the specifics of his seed investment round structure. Brian explains taking a priced equity round early on to avoid valuation friction later.9:28–13:10 · Guest teaching 5/10 Financial Growth, Gross Margins, and High-Efficiency CPMs Nathan inspects Kiip's gross margins and questions how they can reach 63% on a 50/50 rev-share model. Brian breaks down programmatic backfill and explains how incremental engagement creates high eCPMs.13:10–16:46 · Guest teaching 7/10 Founder Mindset on Equity, Dilution, and Opportunity Cost Nathan challenges Brian on dilution and whether he faces significant opportunity cost sticking with Kiip after co-founders left. Brian forcefully rejects the transactional premise, explaining why pre-exit cap table obsession wastes mental energy.16:46–19:13 · Guest teaching 1/10 Future Revenue Projections and Connecting with Brian Online Brian quickly gives future revenue targets before Nathan transitions into personal social handles and extended sponsor ad reads.19:14–21:12 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions During rapid-fire questions, Brian refuses to name a CEO he is shadowing due to confidentiality. Nathan pushes back to uncover details before Brian pivots to Evan Spiegel.0:28–5:37 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Weekly Listener Giveaway Winner Announcement Nathan probes the mechanics of Kiip's business model to understand how revenue sharing and user engagement work. Brian clarifies that brands pay per engagement rather than for user emails.5:38–9:28 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Brian Wong's Early Career and First Seed Funding Nathan calls out Brian for brushing past how he met venture capitalists and tests the specifics of his seed investment round structure. Brian explains taking a priced equity round early on to avoid valuation friction later.9:28–13:10 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Financial Growth, Gross Margins, and High-Efficiency CPMs Nathan inspects Kiip's gross margins and questions how they can reach 63% on a 50/50 rev-share model. Brian breaks down programmatic backfill and explains how incremental engagement creates high eCPMs.13:10–16:46 · Guest disagreement 6/10 Founder Mindset on Equity, Dilution, and Opportunity Cost Nathan challenges Brian on dilution and whether he faces significant opportunity cost sticking with Kiip after co-founders left. Brian forcefully rejects the transactional premise, explaining why pre-exit cap table obsession wastes mental energy.16:46–19:13 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Future Revenue Projections and Connecting with Brian Online Brian quickly gives future revenue targets before Nathan transitions into personal social handles and extended sponsor ad reads.19:14–21:12 · Guest disagreement 3/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions During rapid-fire questions, Brian refuses to name a CEO he is shadowing due to confidentiality. Nathan pushes back to uncover details before Brian pivots to Evan Spiegel.0:28–5:37 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Weekly Listener Giveaway Winner Announcement Nathan probes the mechanics of Kiip's business model to understand how revenue sharing and user engagement work. Brian clarifies that brands pay per engagement rather than for user emails.5:38–9:28 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Brian Wong's Early Career and First Seed Funding Nathan calls out Brian for brushing past how he met venture capitalists and tests the specifics of his seed investment round structure. Brian explains taking a priced equity round early on to avoid valuation friction later.9:28–13:10 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Financial Growth, Gross Margins, and High-Efficiency CPMs Nathan inspects Kiip's gross margins and questions how they can reach 63% on a 50/50 rev-share model. Brian breaks down programmatic backfill and explains how incremental engagement creates high eCPMs.13:10–16:46 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Founder Mindset on Equity, Dilution, and Opportunity Cost Nathan challenges Brian on dilution and whether he faces significant opportunity cost sticking with Kiip after co-founders left. Brian forcefully rejects the transactional premise, explaining why pre-exit cap table obsession wastes mental energy.16:46–19:13 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Future Revenue Projections and Connecting with Brian Online Brian quickly gives future revenue targets before Nathan transitions into personal social handles and extended sponsor ad reads.19:14–21:12 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions During rapid-fire questions, Brian refuses to name a CEO he is shadowing due to confidentiality. Nathan pushes back to uncover details before Brian pivots to Evan Spiegel.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 73% · guest 27%0:00 · Nathan 73% · guest 27%3:00 · Nathan 26.5% · guest 73.5%3:00 · Nathan 26.5% · guest 73.5%6:00 · Nathan 7% · guest 93%6:00 · Nathan 7% · guest 93%9:00 · Nathan 21.5% · guest 78.5%9:00 · Nathan 21.5% · guest 78.5%12:00 · Nathan 33.9% · guest 66.1%12:00 · Nathan 33.9% · guest 66.1%15:00 · Nathan 28.1% · guest 71.9%15:00 · Nathan 28.1% · guest 71.9%18:00 · Nathan 79.4% · guest 20.6%18:00 · Nathan 79.4% · guest 20.6%21:00 · Nathan 99.2% · guest 0.8%21:00 · Nathan 99.2% · guest 0.8%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 14:02 Rejecting cap table frustration

Brian immediately rejects Nathan's premise that he should feel frustrated by dilution, stating that fretting over pre-exit cap tables is a waste of mental energy.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 14:26 Pressing on founder opportunity cost

Nathan refuses to let Brian shrug off dilution, explicitly laying out the math of only owning 20% upside versus launching a new venture with compounded learnings.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 14:42 Reframing commitment versus transactional thinking

Brian dismantles Nathan's spreadsheet-based opportunity cost mindset by articulating how follow-through and long-term reputation yield far greater compounding returns than prematurely optimizing equity stakes.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 8:46 Drilling into seed round deal mechanics

Nathan displays sharp familiarity with venture deal structures by immediately inquiring whether Brian's seed round was a convertible note with discount and interest or an equity priced round.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Weekly Listener Giveaway Winner Announcement 4413 Nathan probes the mechanics of Kiip's business model to understand how revenue sharing and user engagement work. Brian clarifies that brands pay per engagement rather than for user emails.
Brian Wong's Early Career and First Seed Funding 5324 Nathan calls out Brian for brushing past how he met venture capitalists and tests the specifics of his seed investment round structure. Brian explains taking a priced equity round early on to avoid valuation friction later.
Financial Growth, Gross Margins, and High-Efficiency CPMs 6524 Nathan inspects Kiip's gross margins and questions how they can reach 63% on a 50/50 rev-share model. Brian breaks down programmatic backfill and explains how incremental engagement creates high eCPMs.
Founder Mindset on Equity, Dilution, and Opportunity Cost 6767 Nathan challenges Brian on dilution and whether he faces significant opportunity cost sticking with Kiip after co-founders left. Brian forcefully rejects the transactional premise, explaining why pre-exit cap table obsession wastes mental energy.
Future Revenue Projections and Connecting with Brian Online 2100 Brian quickly gives future revenue targets before Nathan transitions into personal social handles and extended sponsor ad reads.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 2134 During rapid-fire questions, Brian refuses to name a CEO he is shadowing due to confidentiality. Nathan pushes back to uncover details before Brian pivots to Evan Spiegel.

Statements from this episode (14)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kiip is embedded in almost 5,000 mobile applications
“Keep is a platform that's embedded into now almost 5000 apps, and it takes triggers or actions that you do in those apps, like leveling up in a game, or finishing a run, or crossing off a to-do in your to-do list app, and then rewarding you with something that…”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 1:56
Disclosure
Kiip operates on a 50-50 revenue share with publishers
“So we typically do a fifty-fifty rev share with our publishers”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 2:48
Opinion
Wong: Doing a priced seed round was Kiip's smartest decision
“Yeah, very rare for its time, but I don't regret it at all. In fact, it was the smartest decision we ever made, because we didn't have to deal with all the pricing weirdness that happened in the years afterwards.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 8:53
Disclosure
Kiip sold 20% equity for its $300k seed round in 2010
“I think we did sell about 20% of it for 300 K.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 9:05
Disclosure
Kiip has raised $32M in total funding
“Thirty-two million.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 9:37
Disclosure
Kiip processed $11M in total transaction volume in 2015
“Well, last year, we did eleven million in revenue.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 9:49
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Kiip projects $19M to $20M in transaction volume for 2016
“This year, we're projecting about 19, twenty million.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 9:51
Disclosure
Kiip had roughly 55% gross margins in 2015
“It's the total transaction volume, so our margins are around 55%.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 10:01
Disclosure
Kiip expects gross margins to expand to 63% in 2016
“And this year our margins are actually increasing substantially to about 63%.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 10:08
Disclosure
Kiip achieved profitability in Q4
“And we actually, Q four, we're profitable.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 10:25
Disclosure
Kiip sees an average reward engagement rate of 10%
“Our engagement rate on average right now is about 10%.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 12:33
Disclosure
Both original Kiip co-founders left operational roles but advise weekly
“Actually both of them have now moved on. They are obviously very involved as advisors. I actually talked to them weekly.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 13:14
Insight
Worrying about pre-exit cap table mechanics wastes founders' mental energy
“Getting your, yourself frustrated with cap table mechanics pre-exit and any particular liquidity event is a waste of your mental energy. At the end of the day, it's what your exit is. If it's IPO, if it's an acquisition, if it's the merger or whatever it is yo…”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 14:04
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Kiip projects $33M to $35M in 2017 transaction volume
“And then 2017, we have projected like around 33 to thirty five million.”
Brian Wong Aug 30, 2016 ▶ 16:58
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