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Nov 16, 2016 · 20m · top-founders

EP 479: $45M Raised, 5000+ Project Management Customers with Mavenlink CEO Ray Grainger

Ray Grainger · 10m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top, host Nathan Latka interviews Mavenlink CEO Ray Grainger about bootstrapping a project management SaaS through the 2008 recession, achieving net negative churn, and raising $45 million to scale globally.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 41.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.5 Guest teaching 1.7 Guest disagreement 1.0 Nathan pushing back 1.7
05100:0010:0020:000:27–4:36 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Top Tribe Weekly Cash Giveaway Announcement Nathan introduces Ray Grainger's extensive professional background at Accenture and Inquira before asking conversational biographical questions. The exchange is friendly and introductory.4:36–7:52 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Bootstrapping Mavenlink During the 2008 Financial Crash Nathan inquires about early revenue and financial survival during the 2008 crash. Ray details how he funded the first three years by selling Accenture founder stock and practicing extreme capital discipline.7:52–10:16 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Customer Base Segmentation and Google Apps Marketplace Scaling Nathan pushes Ray to bracket customer counts between 5k and 10k paying businesses. Ray explains their early growth engine through the Google Apps Marketplace partnership where they were the top installed app.10:16–13:40 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Customer Acquisition Strategy, Event Marketing, and Payback Nathan asks for specific customer acquisition cost figures across channels and conference sponsorships. Ray breaks down why a single blended CAC is deceptive given the wide disparity between organic freemium users and enterprise contracts.13:40–17:33 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Cohort Retention Dynamics and Net Negative Churn Nathan demonstrates solid SaaS acumen by asking about monthly net revenue churn and variable pricing triggers. Ray explains their 'smile curve' cohort dynamics showing net negative churn and expansion revenue.17:35–20:14 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 Acuity Scheduling Sponsor Spotlight and Workflow Benefits Nathan delivers a mid-roll sponsor pitch for Acuity Scheduling before finishing with rapid-fire personal and reflective questions. Ray gives direct, collaborative responses.0:27–4:36 · Guest teaching 1/10 Top Tribe Weekly Cash Giveaway Announcement Nathan introduces Ray Grainger's extensive professional background at Accenture and Inquira before asking conversational biographical questions. The exchange is friendly and introductory.4:36–7:52 · Guest teaching 2/10 Bootstrapping Mavenlink During the 2008 Financial Crash Nathan inquires about early revenue and financial survival during the 2008 crash. Ray details how he funded the first three years by selling Accenture founder stock and practicing extreme capital discipline.7:52–10:16 · Guest teaching 2/10 Customer Base Segmentation and Google Apps Marketplace Scaling Nathan pushes Ray to bracket customer counts between 5k and 10k paying businesses. Ray explains their early growth engine through the Google Apps Marketplace partnership where they were the top installed app.10:16–13:40 · Guest teaching 3/10 Customer Acquisition Strategy, Event Marketing, and Payback Nathan asks for specific customer acquisition cost figures across channels and conference sponsorships. Ray breaks down why a single blended CAC is deceptive given the wide disparity between organic freemium users and enterprise contracts.13:40–17:33 · Guest teaching 2/10 Cohort Retention Dynamics and Net Negative Churn Nathan demonstrates solid SaaS acumen by asking about monthly net revenue churn and variable pricing triggers. Ray explains their 'smile curve' cohort dynamics showing net negative churn and expansion revenue.17:35–20:14 · Guest teaching 0/10 Acuity Scheduling Sponsor Spotlight and Workflow Benefits Nathan delivers a mid-roll sponsor pitch for Acuity Scheduling before finishing with rapid-fire personal and reflective questions. Ray gives direct, collaborative responses.0:27–4:36 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Top Tribe Weekly Cash Giveaway Announcement Nathan introduces Ray Grainger's extensive professional background at Accenture and Inquira before asking conversational biographical questions. The exchange is friendly and introductory.4:36–7:52 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Bootstrapping Mavenlink During the 2008 Financial Crash Nathan inquires about early revenue and financial survival during the 2008 crash. Ray details how he funded the first three years by selling Accenture founder stock and practicing extreme capital discipline.7:52–10:16 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Customer Base Segmentation and Google Apps Marketplace Scaling Nathan pushes Ray to bracket customer counts between 5k and 10k paying businesses. Ray explains their early growth engine through the Google Apps Marketplace partnership where they were the top installed app.10:16–13:40 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Customer Acquisition Strategy, Event Marketing, and Payback Nathan asks for specific customer acquisition cost figures across channels and conference sponsorships. Ray breaks down why a single blended CAC is deceptive given the wide disparity between organic freemium users and enterprise contracts.13:40–17:33 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Cohort Retention Dynamics and Net Negative Churn Nathan demonstrates solid SaaS acumen by asking about monthly net revenue churn and variable pricing triggers. Ray explains their 'smile curve' cohort dynamics showing net negative churn and expansion revenue.17:35–20:14 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Acuity Scheduling Sponsor Spotlight and Workflow Benefits Nathan delivers a mid-roll sponsor pitch for Acuity Scheduling before finishing with rapid-fire personal and reflective questions. Ray gives direct, collaborative responses.0:27–4:36 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Top Tribe Weekly Cash Giveaway Announcement Nathan introduces Ray Grainger's extensive professional background at Accenture and Inquira before asking conversational biographical questions. The exchange is friendly and introductory.4:36–7:52 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Bootstrapping Mavenlink During the 2008 Financial Crash Nathan inquires about early revenue and financial survival during the 2008 crash. Ray details how he funded the first three years by selling Accenture founder stock and practicing extreme capital discipline.7:52–10:16 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Customer Base Segmentation and Google Apps Marketplace Scaling Nathan pushes Ray to bracket customer counts between 5k and 10k paying businesses. Ray explains their early growth engine through the Google Apps Marketplace partnership where they were the top installed app.10:16–13:40 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Customer Acquisition Strategy, Event Marketing, and Payback Nathan asks for specific customer acquisition cost figures across channels and conference sponsorships. Ray breaks down why a single blended CAC is deceptive given the wide disparity between organic freemium users and enterprise contracts.13:40–17:33 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Cohort Retention Dynamics and Net Negative Churn Nathan demonstrates solid SaaS acumen by asking about monthly net revenue churn and variable pricing triggers. Ray explains their 'smile curve' cohort dynamics showing net negative churn and expansion revenue.17:35–20:14 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Acuity Scheduling Sponsor Spotlight and Workflow Benefits Nathan delivers a mid-roll sponsor pitch for Acuity Scheduling before finishing with rapid-fire personal and reflective questions. Ray gives direct, collaborative responses.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 86.3% · guest 13.7%0:00 · Nathan 86.3% · guest 13.7%3:00 · Nathan 19% · guest 81%3:00 · Nathan 19% · guest 81%6:00 · Nathan 21.8% · guest 78.2%6:00 · Nathan 21.8% · guest 78.2%9:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%9:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%12:00 · Nathan 24.7% · guest 75.3%12:00 · Nathan 24.7% · guest 75.3%15:00 · Nathan 40.5% · guest 59.5%15:00 · Nathan 40.5% · guest 59.5%18:00 · Nathan 79.4% · guest 20.6%18:00 · Nathan 79.4% · guest 20.6%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 12:34 Ray challenges the premise of a blended CAC metric

Ray pushes back on Nathan's prompt to give a single customer acquisition cost number, noting that combining free inbound customers and high-touch enterprise deals makes an average figure meaningless.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 9:08 Nathan brackets paying customer metrics

Nathan interrupts Ray's broad explanation of customer tiers to pin him down to a specific range of 5,000 to 10,000 paying businesses.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 14:09 Ray explains the 'smile curve' SaaS cohort model

Ray teaches Nathan about their retention curve dynamics, explaining how long-term expansion from retained enterprise accounts outpaces initial churn.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 14:29 Nathan breaks down net negative revenue churn mechanics

Nathan translates Ray's smile curve concept into technical SaaS metrics, demonstrating strong domain knowledge regarding expansion revenue offsetting gross churn.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Top Tribe Weekly Cash Giveaway Announcement 3111 Nathan introduces Ray Grainger's extensive professional background at Accenture and Inquira before asking conversational biographical questions. The exchange is friendly and introductory.
Bootstrapping Mavenlink During the 2008 Financial Crash 4212 Nathan inquires about early revenue and financial survival during the 2008 crash. Ray details how he funded the first three years by selling Accenture founder stock and practicing extreme capital discipline.
Customer Base Segmentation and Google Apps Marketplace Scaling 5212 Nathan pushes Ray to bracket customer counts between 5k and 10k paying businesses. Ray explains their early growth engine through the Google Apps Marketplace partnership where they were the top installed app.
Customer Acquisition Strategy, Event Marketing, and Payback 6323 Nathan asks for specific customer acquisition cost figures across channels and conference sponsorships. Ray breaks down why a single blended CAC is deceptive given the wide disparity between organic freemium users and enterprise contracts.
Cohort Retention Dynamics and Net Negative Churn 7212 Nathan demonstrates solid SaaS acumen by asking about monthly net revenue churn and variable pricing triggers. Ray explains their 'smile curve' cohort dynamics showing net negative churn and expansion revenue.
Acuity Scheduling Sponsor Spotlight and Workflow Benefits 2000 Nathan delivers a mid-roll sponsor pitch for Acuity Scheduling before finishing with rapid-fire personal and reflective questions. Ray gives direct, collaborative responses.

Statements from this episode (7)

Disclosure
Grainger funded Mavenlink for three years by selling his Accenture stock
“Just before we started the company, I had sold a lot of my, not a lot, but enough of my Accenture stock. I was a, I had founder's stock at the time. Oh, great. Did well there. And sold some stock that funded our company for three years.”
Ray Grainger Nov 16, 2016 ▶ 7:01
Disclosure
Mavenlink spent nearly $1M in self-funding before monetizing
“Probably by the time we got to beginning monetizing the business, we'd probably spent nearly a million dollars.”
Ray Grainger Nov 16, 2016 ▶ 7:40
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Mavenlink counts over 1,500 customers on its Premier tier
“We would have well over 1500 businesses or customers that are using our premier offering.”
Ray Grainger Nov 16, 2016 ▶ 8:29
Assertion Partly supported
Mavenlink was the #1 Google Apps Marketplace app for four years
“Ended up becoming the number one installed app across every category in the world for four years through the Google Apps Marketplace, which drove tens of thousands of visits to Mavenlink at zero acquisition cost.”
Ray Grainger Nov 16, 2016 ▶ 9:45
Disclosure
Grainger: Mavenlink acquires dozens of businesses monthly at near-zero CAC
“We acquire a great number of customers for free. And when I say largely, I mean, these are, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of new businesses every single month at zero acquisition costs for all intents and purposes, other than the cost of producing con…”
Ray Grainger Nov 16, 2016 ▶ 12:40
Insight
A 12-18 month CAC payback works if customers stay three years
“Manage it by channel and really look at the payback. And if you can get it, you know, As you're scaling your company, we're from 12 to 18 month payback on that acquisition cost. If you keep your customers longer than three years, you're in good shape.”
Ray Grainger Nov 16, 2016 ▶ 13:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Mavenlink cohort net dollar retention expands in a 'smile curve'
“If you look at our Net return, net dollar retention over the course of the lifetime of cohorts. It looks more like a smile curve. You can go down and you get some churn, but the people that stay with you grow and grow substantially. And so those cohorts over t…”
Ray Grainger Nov 16, 2016 ▶ 14:06
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