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Feb 2, 2018 · 20m · top-founders

923 He's Doing $10m-$30m in ARR Between Adtech and SaaS

Amit Avner · 10m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of The Top Entrepreneurs, Nathan Latka interviews Taykey founder and CEO Amit Avner, exploring how his company transitioned from media-buying ad-tech to an enterprise SaaS data intelligence platform generating tens of millions in ARR.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 41.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.8 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.5 Nathan pushing back 3.3
05100:0010:0020:000:49–5:21 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Amit Avner's Background and Military Experience Nathan shows strong industry context by referencing a pattern across adtech CEOs pivoting to SaaS models, citing MediaOcean's CEO. Amit agrees and explains the necessity of forecasting revenue for public markets and investors.5:22–9:21 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 SaaS Pricing, Customer Migration, and Valuation Multiples Nathan calculates MRR on the fly and breaks down valuation multiples between media arbitrage and SaaS businesses. Amit is impressed by the quick math and validates the multiple expansion logic.9:22–11:30 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Fundraising Journey and Software Market Dynamics Nathan inquires about venture capital incentives and steering business strategy. Amit shares thoughtful market foresight regarding potential subscription fatigue and vendor consolidation.11:32–18:04 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 HostGator Promotional Announcement Nathan aggressively probes on metrics like churn, CAC, and top-line revenue brackets. Amit sets clear boundaries by withholding exact CAC numbers, leading Nathan to deduce revenue bounds through strategic questioning.0:49–5:21 · Guest teaching 3/10 Amit Avner's Background and Military Experience Nathan shows strong industry context by referencing a pattern across adtech CEOs pivoting to SaaS models, citing MediaOcean's CEO. Amit agrees and explains the necessity of forecasting revenue for public markets and investors.5:22–9:21 · Guest teaching 2/10 SaaS Pricing, Customer Migration, and Valuation Multiples Nathan calculates MRR on the fly and breaks down valuation multiples between media arbitrage and SaaS businesses. Amit is impressed by the quick math and validates the multiple expansion logic.9:22–11:30 · Guest teaching 4/10 Fundraising Journey and Software Market Dynamics Nathan inquires about venture capital incentives and steering business strategy. Amit shares thoughtful market foresight regarding potential subscription fatigue and vendor consolidation.11:32–18:04 · Guest teaching 3/10 HostGator Promotional Announcement Nathan aggressively probes on metrics like churn, CAC, and top-line revenue brackets. Amit sets clear boundaries by withholding exact CAC numbers, leading Nathan to deduce revenue bounds through strategic questioning.0:49–5:21 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Amit Avner's Background and Military Experience Nathan shows strong industry context by referencing a pattern across adtech CEOs pivoting to SaaS models, citing MediaOcean's CEO. Amit agrees and explains the necessity of forecasting revenue for public markets and investors.5:22–9:21 · Guest disagreement 1/10 SaaS Pricing, Customer Migration, and Valuation Multiples Nathan calculates MRR on the fly and breaks down valuation multiples between media arbitrage and SaaS businesses. Amit is impressed by the quick math and validates the multiple expansion logic.9:22–11:30 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Fundraising Journey and Software Market Dynamics Nathan inquires about venture capital incentives and steering business strategy. Amit shares thoughtful market foresight regarding potential subscription fatigue and vendor consolidation.11:32–18:04 · Guest disagreement 3/10 HostGator Promotional Announcement Nathan aggressively probes on metrics like churn, CAC, and top-line revenue brackets. Amit sets clear boundaries by withholding exact CAC numbers, leading Nathan to deduce revenue bounds through strategic questioning.0:49–5:21 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Amit Avner's Background and Military Experience Nathan shows strong industry context by referencing a pattern across adtech CEOs pivoting to SaaS models, citing MediaOcean's CEO. Amit agrees and explains the necessity of forecasting revenue for public markets and investors.5:22–9:21 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 SaaS Pricing, Customer Migration, and Valuation Multiples Nathan calculates MRR on the fly and breaks down valuation multiples between media arbitrage and SaaS businesses. Amit is impressed by the quick math and validates the multiple expansion logic.9:22–11:30 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Fundraising Journey and Software Market Dynamics Nathan inquires about venture capital incentives and steering business strategy. Amit shares thoughtful market foresight regarding potential subscription fatigue and vendor consolidation.11:32–18:04 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 HostGator Promotional Announcement Nathan aggressively probes on metrics like churn, CAC, and top-line revenue brackets. Amit sets clear boundaries by withholding exact CAC numbers, leading Nathan to deduce revenue bounds through strategic questioning.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 52.2% · guest 47.8%0:00 · Nathan 52.2% · guest 47.8%3:00 · Nathan 37.4% · guest 62.6%3:00 · Nathan 37.4% · guest 62.6%6:00 · Nathan 33.4% · guest 66.6%6:00 · Nathan 33.4% · guest 66.6%9:00 · Nathan 29.3% · guest 70.7%9:00 · Nathan 29.3% · guest 70.7%12:00 · Nathan 44.7% · guest 55.3%12:00 · Nathan 44.7% · guest 55.3%15:00 · Nathan 27.2% · guest 72.8%15:00 · Nathan 27.2% · guest 72.8%18:00 · Nathan 70.8% · guest 29.2%18:00 · Nathan 70.8% · guest 29.2%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 16:47 Guest refuses to disclose customer acquisition cost

Amit clearly declines to share CAC metrics to avoid giving an unvetted estimate, establishing a firm boundary against Nathan's questioning.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 18:09 Host traps guest into narrowing revenue range

Nathan directly presses Amit on whether hitting thirty million dollars is feasible, openly admitting he is using the question to narrow down the revenue range.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 10:55 Guest educates host on cyclical market shifts

Amit gives a nuanced perspective on how marketing tech moves in cycles and predicts clients will push back on managing hundreds of individual SaaS subscriptions.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 7:58 Host explains valuation arbitrage from media to SaaS

Nathan demonstrates high financial fluency by detailing how moving revenue from media multiples to recurring SaaS multiples significantly increases enterprise valuation.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Amit Avner's Background and Military Experience 6312 Nathan shows strong industry context by referencing a pattern across adtech CEOs pivoting to SaaS models, citing MediaOcean's CEO. Amit agrees and explains the necessity of forecasting revenue for public markets and investors.
SaaS Pricing, Customer Migration, and Valuation Multiples 7213 Nathan calculates MRR on the fly and breaks down valuation multiples between media arbitrage and SaaS businesses. Amit is impressed by the quick math and validates the multiple expansion logic.
Fundraising Journey and Software Market Dynamics 4412 Nathan inquires about venture capital incentives and steering business strategy. Amit shares thoughtful market foresight regarding potential subscription fatigue and vendor consolidation.
HostGator Promotional Announcement 6336 Nathan aggressively probes on metrics like churn, CAC, and top-line revenue brackets. Amit sets clear boundaries by withholding exact CAC numbers, leading Nathan to deduce revenue bounds through strategic questioning.

Statements from this episode (11)

Insight
Avner: Israeli Military Service Prepares Founders to Build Startups
“I think the magic in Israel is actually the army. If you think about it, the Israeli army is taking young people, putting them in high stress environment for a few years, making them solve big problems very quickly together, and then they finish the army and t…”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 1:19
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Avner: Taykey subscriptions will probably become largest revenue source in a year
“Historically we've been doing on the consumer basis and not a subscription basis. And the subscription is a new thing from the last year. So it's growing. It will probably in a year it will become our largest source of revenue, but until then,”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 3:26
Insight
Avner: Unpredictable revenue prevents ad-tech companies from going public
“The one thing that public companies need to do is to be able to forecast the revenues. And if you can't do that, you can never go public. That's why investors don't love marketing technologies. And that's why investors love specifically subscription services.”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 4:42
Disclosure
Avner: About 20% of Taykey's 200 clients are migrating to SaaS
“Well, we have about 200 clients using us and I would say that about 20% Are, have moved or in the process of moving by the end of the year.”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 5:59
Disclosure
Avner: Taykey has clients spending over $1M annually on data
“We have clients who spend over a million dollars a year with us on our data consumption.”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 7:33
Insight
Avner: Dropping media to sell pure data increases valuation multiples drastically
“When you do that, you can make a ton of money. There's a lot of very successful large companies making a ton of money, but then your multiple is two X on the company because they're selling media. Then you drop the media portion, just sell people the data. Let…”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 8:46
Disclosure
Avner: Sequoia Invested $2M Seed Check into Taykey Before Launch
“Sequoia Capital came in and wrote a check before we started the company, and to get the employees going... We raised two million dollars.”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 9:32
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Avner predicts SaaS subscription fatigue will force new business models by 2019
“By the way, I think in a year we'll have a problem. Everyone will try to sell subscriptions. And then when a client goes in and said, okay, now I need to buy a 150 different subscriptions to things. It's also kind of crazy. So we'll have a different problem go…”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 10:38
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Avner: Buyers Will Prefer Flexibility over Commitments, Driving SaaS Consolidation
“I think what people will start saying that, ah, they don't want to commit to things, they prefer to pay a bit more, but have the flexibility to switch between services, and we'll see a lot of consolidation. You see it specifically in marketing, where the bigge…”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 11:11
Insight
Avner: Opt-out annual contracts beat free trials due to legal friction
“I think that's a better model than having people try it out and then sign up for the year because you wanted to go through the legal hassle of understanding all the contracts, signing for a contract and then canceling because they have more to lose. Well, peop…”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 15:28
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Avner: Media sales take 2-8 weeks whereas SaaS takes 3-9 months
“If you sell data for a media, the cell process can be two weeks to eight weeks now with the world of programmatic that everyone can just turn things on without signing contracts. It's a short one. I think average SAS sales takes three to nine months. It depend…”
Amit Avner Feb 2, 2018 ▶ 16:12
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