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Jun 18, 2018 · 23m · top-founders

1059 $100m In Audio Ad Spend Goes Through Our Platform

Mike Doherty · 11m spoken Nathan Latka · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top Entrepreneurs, Nathan Latka interviews Jelly CEO Mike Doherty, exploring how the programmatic audio exchange scaled to a $22 million ARR and $100 million in processed ad spend across 2,300 radio stations.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 42.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.4 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.6 Nathan pushing back 3.0
05100:0010:0020:000:49–4:40 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Introducing Mike Doherty and Jelly's Ad Platform Nathan frames the audio landscape using his own podcasting metrics and inventory problems, prompting Mike to explain that Jelly currently focuses on programmatic terrestrial radio rather than podcasting back-catalog dynamic ad insertion.4:41–9:21 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Jelly's Business Model and the iHeartMedia Partnership Mike explains Jelly's dual marketplace business model combining recurring software SaaS fees and transactional take-rates, while Nathan summarizes and validates the economics of the iHeartMedia partnership.9:21–11:47 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Revenue Run Rate, Growth Multipliers, and Margins Nathan actively calculates Jelly's run rate and historical growth from sparse clues, pushing Mike on his confidence level regarding the projected 30 million revenue target.11:48–14:10 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Audio Attribution Challenges and Consumer Mindshare Nathan asserts that audio advertising cannot scale without direct attribution, while Mike counters by detailing consumer audio daily mindshare, comparing it to digital and television ad markets.14:13–18:43 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Sponsor Break: Casper Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses Following an ad read for Casper, Nathan and Mike delve into the technical mechanics of audio attribution, discussing probabilistic audience modeling and real-time digital lift tracking.18:43–20:59 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Fundraising, Retention Metrics, CAC, and Team Structure Nathan presses Mike on classic SaaS unit economics including churn, customer acquisition costs, and payback periods, pointing out that large enterprise contracts ease the pressure on traditional payback tracking.21:00–22:14 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan conducts his rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, keeping the tone light and conversational as Mike shares personal routines, favorite tools, and reflections on the early internet era.0:49–4:40 · Guest teaching 4/10 Introducing Mike Doherty and Jelly's Ad Platform Nathan frames the audio landscape using his own podcasting metrics and inventory problems, prompting Mike to explain that Jelly currently focuses on programmatic terrestrial radio rather than podcasting back-catalog dynamic ad insertion.4:41–9:21 · Guest teaching 3/10 Jelly's Business Model and the iHeartMedia Partnership Mike explains Jelly's dual marketplace business model combining recurring software SaaS fees and transactional take-rates, while Nathan summarizes and validates the economics of the iHeartMedia partnership.9:21–11:47 · Guest teaching 2/10 Revenue Run Rate, Growth Multipliers, and Margins Nathan actively calculates Jelly's run rate and historical growth from sparse clues, pushing Mike on his confidence level regarding the projected 30 million revenue target.11:48–14:10 · Guest teaching 5/10 Audio Attribution Challenges and Consumer Mindshare Nathan asserts that audio advertising cannot scale without direct attribution, while Mike counters by detailing consumer audio daily mindshare, comparing it to digital and television ad markets.14:13–18:43 · Guest teaching 4/10 Sponsor Break: Casper Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses Following an ad read for Casper, Nathan and Mike delve into the technical mechanics of audio attribution, discussing probabilistic audience modeling and real-time digital lift tracking.18:43–20:59 · Guest teaching 2/10 Fundraising, Retention Metrics, CAC, and Team Structure Nathan presses Mike on classic SaaS unit economics including churn, customer acquisition costs, and payback periods, pointing out that large enterprise contracts ease the pressure on traditional payback tracking.21:00–22:14 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan conducts his rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, keeping the tone light and conversational as Mike shares personal routines, favorite tools, and reflections on the early internet era.0:49–4:40 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Introducing Mike Doherty and Jelly's Ad Platform Nathan frames the audio landscape using his own podcasting metrics and inventory problems, prompting Mike to explain that Jelly currently focuses on programmatic terrestrial radio rather than podcasting back-catalog dynamic ad insertion.4:41–9:21 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Jelly's Business Model and the iHeartMedia Partnership Mike explains Jelly's dual marketplace business model combining recurring software SaaS fees and transactional take-rates, while Nathan summarizes and validates the economics of the iHeartMedia partnership.9:21–11:47 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Revenue Run Rate, Growth Multipliers, and Margins Nathan actively calculates Jelly's run rate and historical growth from sparse clues, pushing Mike on his confidence level regarding the projected 30 million revenue target.11:48–14:10 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Audio Attribution Challenges and Consumer Mindshare Nathan asserts that audio advertising cannot scale without direct attribution, while Mike counters by detailing consumer audio daily mindshare, comparing it to digital and television ad markets.14:13–18:43 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sponsor Break: Casper Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses Following an ad read for Casper, Nathan and Mike delve into the technical mechanics of audio attribution, discussing probabilistic audience modeling and real-time digital lift tracking.18:43–20:59 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Fundraising, Retention Metrics, CAC, and Team Structure Nathan presses Mike on classic SaaS unit economics including churn, customer acquisition costs, and payback periods, pointing out that large enterprise contracts ease the pressure on traditional payback tracking.21:00–22:14 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan conducts his rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, keeping the tone light and conversational as Mike shares personal routines, favorite tools, and reflections on the early internet era.0:49–4:40 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Introducing Mike Doherty and Jelly's Ad Platform Nathan frames the audio landscape using his own podcasting metrics and inventory problems, prompting Mike to explain that Jelly currently focuses on programmatic terrestrial radio rather than podcasting back-catalog dynamic ad insertion.4:41–9:21 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Jelly's Business Model and the iHeartMedia Partnership Mike explains Jelly's dual marketplace business model combining recurring software SaaS fees and transactional take-rates, while Nathan summarizes and validates the economics of the iHeartMedia partnership.9:21–11:47 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Revenue Run Rate, Growth Multipliers, and Margins Nathan actively calculates Jelly's run rate and historical growth from sparse clues, pushing Mike on his confidence level regarding the projected 30 million revenue target.11:48–14:10 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Audio Attribution Challenges and Consumer Mindshare Nathan asserts that audio advertising cannot scale without direct attribution, while Mike counters by detailing consumer audio daily mindshare, comparing it to digital and television ad markets.14:13–18:43 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Sponsor Break: Casper Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses Following an ad read for Casper, Nathan and Mike delve into the technical mechanics of audio attribution, discussing probabilistic audience modeling and real-time digital lift tracking.18:43–20:59 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Fundraising, Retention Metrics, CAC, and Team Structure Nathan presses Mike on classic SaaS unit economics including churn, customer acquisition costs, and payback periods, pointing out that large enterprise contracts ease the pressure on traditional payback tracking.21:00–22:14 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan conducts his rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, keeping the tone light and conversational as Mike shares personal routines, favorite tools, and reflections on the early internet era.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 62.6% · guest 37.4%0:00 · Nathan 62.6% · guest 37.4%3:00 · Nathan 18.9% · guest 81.1%3:00 · Nathan 18.9% · guest 81.1%6:00 · Nathan 17.2% · guest 82.8%6:00 · Nathan 17.2% · guest 82.8%9:00 · Nathan 41.9% · guest 58.1%9:00 · Nathan 41.9% · guest 58.1%12:00 · Nathan 42.8% · guest 57.2%12:00 · Nathan 42.8% · guest 57.2%15:00 · Nathan 64.5% · guest 35.5%15:00 · Nathan 64.5% · guest 35.5%18:00 · Nathan 33.6% · guest 66.4%18:00 · Nathan 33.6% · guest 66.4%21:00 · Nathan 66.3% · guest 33.7%21:00 · Nathan 66.3% · guest 33.7%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 12:29 Mike re-evaluates audio market potential against Nathan's attribution critique

Mike directly pushes back on Nathan's claim that audio advertising cannot scale without immediate direct attribution, highlighting that audio commands an untapped 1.5 to 2 hours of daily consumer mindshare.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 10:15 Nathan calls out Mike's hesitation on revenue targets

Nathan immediately catches Mike's hesitant tone when projecting a 30 million run rate, directly pressing him on his confidence level.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:23 Mike explains broadcast data modeling and statistical attribution

Mike educates Nathan on how non-connected FM broadcast audio matches mobile streaming data with station demographic models to infer buyer identity without digital cookies.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 10:00 Nathan extrapolates exact company revenue and growth run rate

Nathan demonstrates financial modeling expertise by synthesizing take-rate percentages and SaaS station fees to deduce Jelly's trailing twelve-month revenue run rate.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Mike Doherty and Jelly's Ad Platform 5423 Nathan frames the audio landscape using his own podcasting metrics and inventory problems, prompting Mike to explain that Jelly currently focuses on programmatic terrestrial radio rather than podcasting back-catalog dynamic ad insertion.
Jelly's Business Model and the iHeartMedia Partnership 6312 Mike explains Jelly's dual marketplace business model combining recurring software SaaS fees and transactional take-rates, while Nathan summarizes and validates the economics of the iHeartMedia partnership.
Revenue Run Rate, Growth Multipliers, and Margins 7225 Nathan actively calculates Jelly's run rate and historical growth from sparse clues, pushing Mike on his confidence level regarding the projected 30 million revenue target.
Audio Attribution Challenges and Consumer Mindshare 6534 Nathan asserts that audio advertising cannot scale without direct attribution, while Mike counters by detailing consumer audio daily mindshare, comparing it to digital and television ad markets.
Sponsor Break: Casper Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses 5412 Following an ad read for Casper, Nathan and Mike delve into the technical mechanics of audio attribution, discussing probabilistic audience modeling and real-time digital lift tracking.
Fundraising, Retention Metrics, CAC, and Team Structure 6224 Nathan presses Mike on classic SaaS unit economics including churn, customer acquisition costs, and payback periods, pointing out that large enterprise contracts ease the pressure on traditional payback tracking.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 3101 Nathan conducts his rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, keeping the tone light and conversational as Mike shares personal routines, favorite tools, and reflections on the early internet era.

Statements from this episode (14)

Disclosure
Host Nathan Latka's podcast makes $2M to $3M annually in sponsorships
“Right now I do between two and three million a year and podcast sponsorships.”
Nathan Latka Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 2:47
Assertion Supported
Broadcast radio captures 80% of all US audio advertising spend
“The reason why we started there was that's where like basically eight out of 10 dollars of all audio advertising was sitting.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 4:02
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jelly processes approximately $100 million in ad spend through its platform
“We're processing about a hundred million dollars of spend to the platform right now”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 4:47
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jelly generates $1M in monthly recurring software revenue across 2,300 stations
“We generate currently about a million dollars a month from 2300 radio stations and recurring software.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 5:37
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Advertisers using Jelly can reach 250 million people monthly
“You log into Jelly. You're looking to buy some ads. You can reach two hundred fifty million people a month through our partners.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 8:17
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jelly's platform addresses 65% of all US radio listener share
“If you look at listener share, we probably had about 65% listener share right now of all listening of radio that you can essentially address if you want to buy an ad”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 8:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jelly achieved 400% year-over-year revenue growth in 2017
“400% growth year over year.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 10:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jelly achieved 85% gross margins in the third quarter of 2018
“Well we did in Q three, 85% gross margins. That was up from 83%.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 11:07
Assertion Supported
iHeart controls approximately 30% of the US national advertising market
“Not only were they a big source of their big customer, but they attracted the rest of the market. So a fear of missing out concept when you have someone who represents about 30% market share in the U.S. Of national advertising.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 11:33
Assertion Supported
The US audio advertising market is worth roughly $18 billion
“I think that if you look at audio as a full category in the U S today, it's about eighteen billion.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 12:30
Assertion Supported
iHeartMedia models broadcast radio demographics using its mobile app data
“One of our partners, I heart media with I heart radio has an app where they can learn a lot about the audience. They take that mobile app and take the data from that and use that as a way of projecting onto a radio station guesses as to who the people are that…”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 17:00
Disclosure
Latka charges sponsors 20x standard podcast CPMs due to high conversion
“So now I charge, you know, 20 times what I would charge if it was just on a CPM basis, because I know my audience buys.”
Nathan Latka Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 17:58
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jelly maintains under 5% annual logo and revenue churn
“Like under, under, under five percent.”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 19:01
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jelly's enterprise customer acquisition cost ranges from $50K to $100K
“So we typically look at an acquisition cost of a big deal of, let's say anywhere from 50 to a hundred K of just time and travel and all this other work you have to do to make sure that they get comfortable flipping over and using this platform as opposed to th…”
Mike Doherty Jun 18, 2018 ▶ 19:44
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