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Aug 1, 2018 · 22m · top-founders

1103 When should he quit his agency and go all in on software?

Stefan Rossler · 12m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Host Nathan Latka interviews Austrian founder Stefan Rossler to examine the operational and strategic dynamics of bootstrapping UserBrain, a usability testing SaaS, while maintaining a stable four-person UX design agency, Simplice.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 35.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.0 Guest teaching 3.2 Guest disagreement 3.8 Nathan pushing back 5.2
05100:0010:0020:001:09–4:23 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Balancing Consulting Roots with SaaS Ambitions at Simplice and UserBrain Nathan frames SaaS as inherently higher margin and lower stress than running an agency. Stefan gently pushes back on the assumption that SaaS is lower stress, emphasizing the comfort of one-on-one client relationships over scaling to thousands of users.4:24–9:17 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Exploring Agency Structure and Founders' Mindset on Financial Metrics Nathan pushes forcefully when Stefan claims not to know the agency's revenue numbers, bluntly telling him that listeners won't believe a 25% owner doesn't track revenue. Stefan stands his ground calmly, stating he leaves financials to his partners and focuses purely on people.9:17–15:44 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Demystifying Usability Testing, Global Testers, and Target Audiences Nathan repeatedly challenges why UserBrain doesn't enforce strict demographic targeting for testers. Stefan educates Nathan using Steve Krug's usability principles, explaining that fundamental user experience testing focuses on general human comprehension rather than demographic cohorts.15:44–20:17 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 The Dilemma of Bootstrapping Software Versus Retaining an Agency Safety Net Nathan frames Stefan's refusal to abandon the agency as a lack of confidence and hedging against risk. Stefan dismisses the idea of internal conflict, comparing work to washing dishes and shutting down further speculative philosophy until a transition actually happens.20:17–21:55 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Stefan Rossler A standard, friendly Famous Five rapid-fire closing segment where Stefan shares his reading habits, inspiration from Jason Fried, and reflections on persistence.1:09–4:23 · Guest teaching 3/10 Balancing Consulting Roots with SaaS Ambitions at Simplice and UserBrain Nathan frames SaaS as inherently higher margin and lower stress than running an agency. Stefan gently pushes back on the assumption that SaaS is lower stress, emphasizing the comfort of one-on-one client relationships over scaling to thousands of users.4:24–9:17 · Guest teaching 2/10 Exploring Agency Structure and Founders' Mindset on Financial Metrics Nathan pushes forcefully when Stefan claims not to know the agency's revenue numbers, bluntly telling him that listeners won't believe a 25% owner doesn't track revenue. Stefan stands his ground calmly, stating he leaves financials to his partners and focuses purely on people.9:17–15:44 · Guest teaching 7/10 Demystifying Usability Testing, Global Testers, and Target Audiences Nathan repeatedly challenges why UserBrain doesn't enforce strict demographic targeting for testers. Stefan educates Nathan using Steve Krug's usability principles, explaining that fundamental user experience testing focuses on general human comprehension rather than demographic cohorts.15:44–20:17 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Dilemma of Bootstrapping Software Versus Retaining an Agency Safety Net Nathan frames Stefan's refusal to abandon the agency as a lack of confidence and hedging against risk. Stefan dismisses the idea of internal conflict, comparing work to washing dishes and shutting down further speculative philosophy until a transition actually happens.20:17–21:55 · Guest teaching 0/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Stefan Rossler A standard, friendly Famous Five rapid-fire closing segment where Stefan shares his reading habits, inspiration from Jason Fried, and reflections on persistence.1:09–4:23 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Balancing Consulting Roots with SaaS Ambitions at Simplice and UserBrain Nathan frames SaaS as inherently higher margin and lower stress than running an agency. Stefan gently pushes back on the assumption that SaaS is lower stress, emphasizing the comfort of one-on-one client relationships over scaling to thousands of users.4:24–9:17 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Exploring Agency Structure and Founders' Mindset on Financial Metrics Nathan pushes forcefully when Stefan claims not to know the agency's revenue numbers, bluntly telling him that listeners won't believe a 25% owner doesn't track revenue. Stefan stands his ground calmly, stating he leaves financials to his partners and focuses purely on people.9:17–15:44 · Guest disagreement 5/10 Demystifying Usability Testing, Global Testers, and Target Audiences Nathan repeatedly challenges why UserBrain doesn't enforce strict demographic targeting for testers. Stefan educates Nathan using Steve Krug's usability principles, explaining that fundamental user experience testing focuses on general human comprehension rather than demographic cohorts.15:44–20:17 · Guest disagreement 6/10 The Dilemma of Bootstrapping Software Versus Retaining an Agency Safety Net Nathan frames Stefan's refusal to abandon the agency as a lack of confidence and hedging against risk. Stefan dismisses the idea of internal conflict, comparing work to washing dishes and shutting down further speculative philosophy until a transition actually happens.20:17–21:55 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Stefan Rossler A standard, friendly Famous Five rapid-fire closing segment where Stefan shares his reading habits, inspiration from Jason Fried, and reflections on persistence.1:09–4:23 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Balancing Consulting Roots with SaaS Ambitions at Simplice and UserBrain Nathan frames SaaS as inherently higher margin and lower stress than running an agency. Stefan gently pushes back on the assumption that SaaS is lower stress, emphasizing the comfort of one-on-one client relationships over scaling to thousands of users.4:24–9:17 · Nathan pushing back 8/10 Exploring Agency Structure and Founders' Mindset on Financial Metrics Nathan pushes forcefully when Stefan claims not to know the agency's revenue numbers, bluntly telling him that listeners won't believe a 25% owner doesn't track revenue. Stefan stands his ground calmly, stating he leaves financials to his partners and focuses purely on people.9:17–15:44 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Demystifying Usability Testing, Global Testers, and Target Audiences Nathan repeatedly challenges why UserBrain doesn't enforce strict demographic targeting for testers. Stefan educates Nathan using Steve Krug's usability principles, explaining that fundamental user experience testing focuses on general human comprehension rather than demographic cohorts.15:44–20:17 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 The Dilemma of Bootstrapping Software Versus Retaining an Agency Safety Net Nathan frames Stefan's refusal to abandon the agency as a lack of confidence and hedging against risk. Stefan dismisses the idea of internal conflict, comparing work to washing dishes and shutting down further speculative philosophy until a transition actually happens.20:17–21:55 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Stefan Rossler A standard, friendly Famous Five rapid-fire closing segment where Stefan shares his reading habits, inspiration from Jason Fried, and reflections on persistence.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 56.1% · guest 43.9%0:00 · Nathan 56.1% · guest 43.9%3:00 · Nathan 23.3% · guest 76.7%3:00 · Nathan 23.3% · guest 76.7%6:00 · Nathan 31.6% · guest 68.4%6:00 · Nathan 31.6% · guest 68.4%9:00 · Nathan 18.8% · guest 81.2%9:00 · Nathan 18.8% · guest 81.2%12:00 · Nathan 21% · guest 79%12:00 · Nathan 21% · guest 79%15:00 · Nathan 37% · guest 63%15:00 · Nathan 37% · guest 63%18:00 · Nathan 53.3% · guest 46.7%18:00 · Nathan 53.3% · guest 46.7%21:00 · Nathan 58.2% · guest 41.8%21:00 · Nathan 58.2% · guest 41.8%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 17:00 Stefan shuts down Nathan's framing of internal struggle

Stefan firmly rejects Nathan's framing that he is experiencing a war in his head between SaaS and agency life, countering with a grounded analogy comparing work to doing the dishes.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 5:16 Nathan refuses to believe Stefan does not know revenue

Nathan directly challenges Stefan's claim of financial ignorance, stating he does not believe him for two seconds and suggesting he is acting like an employee rather than an owner.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:04 Stefan breaks down why demographic targeting in UX is flawed

Stefan cites usability authority Steve Krug to explain why testing basic interface clarity across broad human behavior is far more valuable than falling for demographic targeting illusions.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 19:27 Nathan cites Qualtrics and Hootsuite agency spinout precedents

Nathan demonstrates deep SaaS industry knowledge by referencing how major SaaS enterprises like Qualtrics and Hootsuite successfully transitioned out of consulting agencies.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Balancing Consulting Roots with SaaS Ambitions at Simplice and UserBrain 5334 Nathan frames SaaS as inherently higher margin and lower stress than running an agency. Stefan gently pushes back on the assumption that SaaS is lower stress, emphasizing the comfort of one-on-one client relationships over scaling to thousands of users.
Exploring Agency Structure and Founders' Mindset on Financial Metrics 6248 Nathan pushes forcefully when Stefan claims not to know the agency's revenue numbers, bluntly telling him that listeners won't believe a 25% owner doesn't track revenue. Stefan stands his ground calmly, stating he leaves financials to his partners and focuses purely on people.
Demystifying Usability Testing, Global Testers, and Target Audiences 5756 Nathan repeatedly challenges why UserBrain doesn't enforce strict demographic targeting for testers. Stefan educates Nathan using Steve Krug's usability principles, explaining that fundamental user experience testing focuses on general human comprehension rather than demographic cohorts.
The Dilemma of Bootstrapping Software Versus Retaining an Agency Safety Net 6467 Nathan frames Stefan's refusal to abandon the agency as a lack of confidence and hedging against risk. Stefan dismisses the idea of internal conflict, comparing work to washing dishes and shutting down further speculative philosophy until a transition actually happens.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Stefan Rossler 3011 A standard, friendly Famous Five rapid-fire closing segment where Stefan shares his reading habits, inspiration from Jason Fried, and reflections on persistence.

Statements from this episode (10)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Rossler: UserBrain Launched Its MVP Within One Week
“And I think three years ago, we, within one week, we just launched a kind of a minimal viable product for user brain.”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 2:20
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Rossler: UserBrain and Simplice Share the Exact Same Buyer Profile
“It's a completely different business model, but it's the exactly the same kind of people buying for it, paying for it.”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 3:46
Disclosure
Rossler: Simplice co-founder ignores financial metrics despite owning 25 percent
“I am an owner, but I entrust the others with the numbers and all of this stuff, and I'm focusing more on people, so.”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 5:49
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Rossler: UserBrain is run by the same four agency partners
“It's just, we are the exactly same people. So it's the same four people. And we are running the user brain business”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 9:10
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Rossler: UserBrain reached 10,000 global usability testers by July 2018
“And I think just a week ago we hit 10,000, so 10,000 people around the world who are testing with user brain”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 10:03
Insight
Rossler: Demographic targeting is often unimportant for UX testing
“As we've learned from the usability perspective and UX perspective, it's oftentimes not really important who you're testing with.”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 11:50
Disclosure
Rossler: Spotify and Lush Cosmetics are UserBrain customers
“Customers are, for example Spotify is one of them or Lush cosmetics.”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 13:21
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Rossler: The biggest future companies will sell to everyone, not niches
“Those that are going to be big in the future are those that are not focusing on a very specific target audience, but those that say, well, our product is so, that's us, it's our product, and we're gonna, we want to sell it to everyone.”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 13:42
Disclosure
Rossler: UserBrain avoids fast scaling by intentionally rejecting free trials
“We want to make the, I mean, I know it's kind of like the opposite of what most people are doing. But really understand this whole thing and not, not scale it up too fast because at the moment we're kind of like building up barriers. Also with our signup page,…”
Stefan Rossler Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 15:44
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Latka: The most successful SaaS companies originated out of agencies
“And the most successful SAS companies I've ever seen all came out of agencies. Qualtrics with Ryan Smith Ryan Holmes at Hootsuite. I mean, the most successful SaaS company started as agencies.”
Nathan Latka Aug 1, 2018 ▶ 19:46
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