StarZero All shows Try the podcast clipper →

Jul 4, 2019 · 16m · top-founders

1440 He's Flat at $25k/mo So He's Making This 1 Big Change

Eric Wolf · 9m spoken Nathan Latka · 5m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Nathan Latka interviews Eric Wolf, founder of WordPress marketing automation platform Orbiter, who explains his unconventional decision to pivot a stagnating $25,000 per month SaaS company into a grant-funded 501(c)(3) non-profit supporting underrepresented business owners.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 37.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 1.0 Guest disagreement 1.2 Nathan pushing back 2.6
05100:0010:000:00–2:08 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Book Promotion: How to Be a Capitalist Without Any Capital Monologue intro and promotional spot for Nathan's book, along with intro soundbites. No host-guest interaction occurs in this segment.2:09–4:37 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Introducing Eric Wolf and Orbiter's Product Vision Nathan introduces Eric and explores Orbiter's positioning against major players like HubSpot and Infusionsoft. Nathan presses for clarity on whether the product is essentially a WordPress contact form widget, which Eric politely clarifies.4:37–6:56 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Software Pricing and Agency Foundations Nathan asks about pricing, founding history, and challenges Eric on why he keeps his agency open instead of dedicating 100% of his focus to SaaS. Eric explains the strategic synergy between the agency and product feedback.6:56–13:25 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Evaluating Revenue Stagnation and Active Users Nathan aggressively triangulates revenue numbers, forcing Eric to differentiate between total users and paying customers ($25k/mo revenue). Nathan then intensely challenges Eric's plan to pivot into a non-profit funded by corporate donations, arguing that corporate donors will have the exact same commercial expectations as sponsors.13:25–16:20 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Team Distribution and Official Launch Timeline The conversation covers team size breakdown between agency and SaaS before shifting into the Famous Five rapid-fire questions and outro summary.0:00–2:08 · Guest teaching 0/10 Book Promotion: How to Be a Capitalist Without Any Capital Monologue intro and promotional spot for Nathan's book, along with intro soundbites. No host-guest interaction occurs in this segment.2:09–4:37 · Guest teaching 1/10 Introducing Eric Wolf and Orbiter's Product Vision Nathan introduces Eric and explores Orbiter's positioning against major players like HubSpot and Infusionsoft. Nathan presses for clarity on whether the product is essentially a WordPress contact form widget, which Eric politely clarifies.4:37–6:56 · Guest teaching 1/10 Software Pricing and Agency Foundations Nathan asks about pricing, founding history, and challenges Eric on why he keeps his agency open instead of dedicating 100% of his focus to SaaS. Eric explains the strategic synergy between the agency and product feedback.6:56–13:25 · Guest teaching 2/10 Evaluating Revenue Stagnation and Active Users Nathan aggressively triangulates revenue numbers, forcing Eric to differentiate between total users and paying customers ($25k/mo revenue). Nathan then intensely challenges Eric's plan to pivot into a non-profit funded by corporate donations, arguing that corporate donors will have the exact same commercial expectations as sponsors.13:25–16:20 · Guest teaching 1/10 Team Distribution and Official Launch Timeline The conversation covers team size breakdown between agency and SaaS before shifting into the Famous Five rapid-fire questions and outro summary.0:00–2:08 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Book Promotion: How to Be a Capitalist Without Any Capital Monologue intro and promotional spot for Nathan's book, along with intro soundbites. No host-guest interaction occurs in this segment.2:09–4:37 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Introducing Eric Wolf and Orbiter's Product Vision Nathan introduces Eric and explores Orbiter's positioning against major players like HubSpot and Infusionsoft. Nathan presses for clarity on whether the product is essentially a WordPress contact form widget, which Eric politely clarifies.4:37–6:56 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Software Pricing and Agency Foundations Nathan asks about pricing, founding history, and challenges Eric on why he keeps his agency open instead of dedicating 100% of his focus to SaaS. Eric explains the strategic synergy between the agency and product feedback.6:56–13:25 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Evaluating Revenue Stagnation and Active Users Nathan aggressively triangulates revenue numbers, forcing Eric to differentiate between total users and paying customers ($25k/mo revenue). Nathan then intensely challenges Eric's plan to pivot into a non-profit funded by corporate donations, arguing that corporate donors will have the exact same commercial expectations as sponsors.13:25–16:20 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Team Distribution and Official Launch Timeline The conversation covers team size breakdown between agency and SaaS before shifting into the Famous Five rapid-fire questions and outro summary.0:00–2:08 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Book Promotion: How to Be a Capitalist Without Any Capital Monologue intro and promotional spot for Nathan's book, along with intro soundbites. No host-guest interaction occurs in this segment.2:09–4:37 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Introducing Eric Wolf and Orbiter's Product Vision Nathan introduces Eric and explores Orbiter's positioning against major players like HubSpot and Infusionsoft. Nathan presses for clarity on whether the product is essentially a WordPress contact form widget, which Eric politely clarifies.4:37–6:56 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Software Pricing and Agency Foundations Nathan asks about pricing, founding history, and challenges Eric on why he keeps his agency open instead of dedicating 100% of his focus to SaaS. Eric explains the strategic synergy between the agency and product feedback.6:56–13:25 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Evaluating Revenue Stagnation and Active Users Nathan aggressively triangulates revenue numbers, forcing Eric to differentiate between total users and paying customers ($25k/mo revenue). Nathan then intensely challenges Eric's plan to pivot into a non-profit funded by corporate donations, arguing that corporate donors will have the exact same commercial expectations as sponsors.13:25–16:20 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Team Distribution and Official Launch Timeline The conversation covers team size breakdown between agency and SaaS before shifting into the Famous Five rapid-fire questions and outro summary.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 84.5% · guest 15.5%0:00 · Nathan 84.5% · guest 15.5%3:00 · Nathan 13.7% · guest 86.3%3:00 · Nathan 13.7% · guest 86.3%6:00 · Nathan 29% · guest 71%6:00 · Nathan 29% · guest 71%9:00 · Nathan 21.2% · guest 78.8%9:00 · Nathan 21.2% · guest 78.8%12:00 · Nathan 26.1% · guest 73.9%12:00 · Nathan 26.1% · guest 73.9%15:00 · Nathan 56.7% · guest 43.3%15:00 · Nathan 56.7% · guest 43.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 12:53 Eric defends non-profit corporate donation model

Eric firmly pushes back against Nathan's claim that corporate donors will demand conversion metrics and act like customers, asserting that branding-only expectations represent a completely different dynamic.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 12:47 Nathan disputes corporate donor altruism

Nathan refuses Eric's framing that pivoting to a non-profit eliminates corporate beholdenness, pointing out that corporate donors still demand concrete deliverables and strings attached.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:00 Eric breaks down user base vs paying customers

Eric clarifies the gap between his 500 active users and 350 paying customers, detailing grandfathered freemium accounts and discounted partner agency channels.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 6:56 Nathan dissects revenue and ARPU metrics

Nathan instantly calculates that 500 customers at $100 per month should equal $50k monthly revenue, forcing Eric to admit revenue is only half that at $25k.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Book Promotion: How to Be a Capitalist Without Any Capital 0000 Monologue intro and promotional spot for Nathan's book, along with intro soundbites. No host-guest interaction occurs in this segment.
Introducing Eric Wolf and Orbiter's Product Vision 4102 Nathan introduces Eric and explores Orbiter's positioning against major players like HubSpot and Infusionsoft. Nathan presses for clarity on whether the product is essentially a WordPress contact form widget, which Eric politely clarifies.
Software Pricing and Agency Foundations 4113 Nathan asks about pricing, founding history, and challenges Eric on why he keeps his agency open instead of dedicating 100% of his focus to SaaS. Eric explains the strategic synergy between the agency and product feedback.
Evaluating Revenue Stagnation and Active Users 7247 Nathan aggressively triangulates revenue numbers, forcing Eric to differentiate between total users and paying customers ($25k/mo revenue). Nathan then intensely challenges Eric's plan to pivot into a non-profit funded by corporate donations, arguing that corporate donors will have the exact same commercial expectations as sponsors.
Team Distribution and Official Launch Timeline 3111 The conversation covers team size breakdown between agency and SaaS before shifting into the Famous Five rapid-fire questions and outro summary.

Statements from this episode (7)

Opinion
HubSpot and Infusionsoft are too difficult for small businesses to implement
“When you look at the big packages, the all-in-one solutions your companies like HubSpot, Infusionsoft, et cetera. They make really great software but it tends to be, from a small business perspective, very difficult to implement.”
Eric Wolf Jul 4, 2019 ▶ 3:00
Assertion Partly supported
Wolf: Orbiter charges $99 monthly or $1,000 annually
“99 dollars per month or a thousand dollars per year.”
Eric Wolf Jul 4, 2019 ▶ 4:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Orbiter generates approximately $25,000 in monthly revenue
“Probably about half that at this point in monthly revenue.”
Eric Wolf Jul 4, 2019 ▶ 7:32
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Wolf: Orbiter has approximately 350 paying customers
“About three 50.”
Eric Wolf Jul 4, 2019 ▶ 8:16
Disclosure
Orbiter is pivoting into a charitable non-profit after flat growth
“We're actually changing the entire model, and Orbiter is about to become a charitable non-profit”
Eric Wolf Jul 4, 2019 ▶ 9:16
Insight
SaaS companies cannot profitably solve the customer education problem in marketing
“One of the problems with marketing automation is that you give people a fishing pole and they still don't know how to use it. And that's a problem that as soft, that as a software company, it's very difficult for us to solve profitably”
Eric Wolf Jul 4, 2019 ▶ 10:58
Prediction Didn’t hold up
Orbiter expects to receive at least $100k for its non-profit pivot
“We're going to be getting access to at least a hundred grand off the bat”
Eric Wolf Jul 4, 2019 ▶ 12:04
Made with StarZero

Turn any episode into a week of clips.

This entire site, over 2,600 episodes transcribed, diarized, checked and made playable, runs on the StarZero media pipeline. Drop in your own episode and the podcast clipper finds the moments worth sharing, cuts them, captions them, and reframes them for every feed.

Try the podcast clipper Learn more