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Aug 31, 2019 · 20m · top-founders

1498 Why He Took $1.6M in Venture Debt From Lighter Capital

Mark Aubin · 11m spoken Nathan Latka · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this interview, Nathan Latka speaks with AppBuddy founder Mark Aubin about scaling an enterprise CRM data management platform to 550 customers, balancing $4.6 million in hybrid debt and equity financing, and designing high-retention Customer Success operations.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 36.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.2 Guest teaching 3.7 Guest disagreement 3.2 Nathan pushing back 3.7
05100:0010:0020:001:58–4:33 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Founding Origins and Marketplace Strategy Nathan inquires about platform distribution channels, comparing Salesforce to SAP. Mark explains the cultural differences between the Salesforce AppExchange ecosystem and SAP's long-cycle customization mindset.4:33–7:22 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Product Lines and Account Expansion Strategy Nathan presses on expansion mechanics and assumes four separate upsell products drive revenue growth. Mark corrects him, clarifying those are merely workflow templates and expansion is driven primarily by seat additions.7:22–9:28 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Customer Success Structure and Sales Alignment Nathan probes how customer success is incentivized and when expansion deals transition back to account executives. Mark details why CS remains non-quota carrying to maintain customer trust and feed product improvements.9:28–14:27 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Distributed Team Model and Customer Segments Nathan presses Mark on the venture debt structure with Lighter Capital. When Mark refuses to answer citing NDAs, Nathan pushes back, pointing out that Lighter Capital's model is public revenue-based financing.14:27–18:57 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Growth Trajectory and Metric Boundaries Tension peaks when Mark refuses to give specific growth metrics and Nathan questions why he agreed to appear on the show. Mark firmly pushes back that he had explicitly set boundaries via email before the recording.18:57–20:02 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid Fire Round Nathan guides Mark through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions to close out the episode smoothly.1:58–4:33 · Guest teaching 5/10 Founding Origins and Marketplace Strategy Nathan inquires about platform distribution channels, comparing Salesforce to SAP. Mark explains the cultural differences between the Salesforce AppExchange ecosystem and SAP's long-cycle customization mindset.4:33–7:22 · Guest teaching 6/10 Product Lines and Account Expansion Strategy Nathan presses on expansion mechanics and assumes four separate upsell products drive revenue growth. Mark corrects him, clarifying those are merely workflow templates and expansion is driven primarily by seat additions.7:22–9:28 · Guest teaching 3/10 Customer Success Structure and Sales Alignment Nathan probes how customer success is incentivized and when expansion deals transition back to account executives. Mark details why CS remains non-quota carrying to maintain customer trust and feed product improvements.9:28–14:27 · Guest teaching 3/10 Distributed Team Model and Customer Segments Nathan presses Mark on the venture debt structure with Lighter Capital. When Mark refuses to answer citing NDAs, Nathan pushes back, pointing out that Lighter Capital's model is public revenue-based financing.14:27–18:57 · Guest teaching 4/10 Growth Trajectory and Metric Boundaries Tension peaks when Mark refuses to give specific growth metrics and Nathan questions why he agreed to appear on the show. Mark firmly pushes back that he had explicitly set boundaries via email before the recording.18:57–20:02 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid Fire Round Nathan guides Mark through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions to close out the episode smoothly.1:58–4:33 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Founding Origins and Marketplace Strategy Nathan inquires about platform distribution channels, comparing Salesforce to SAP. Mark explains the cultural differences between the Salesforce AppExchange ecosystem and SAP's long-cycle customization mindset.4:33–7:22 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Product Lines and Account Expansion Strategy Nathan presses on expansion mechanics and assumes four separate upsell products drive revenue growth. Mark corrects him, clarifying those are merely workflow templates and expansion is driven primarily by seat additions.7:22–9:28 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Customer Success Structure and Sales Alignment Nathan probes how customer success is incentivized and when expansion deals transition back to account executives. Mark details why CS remains non-quota carrying to maintain customer trust and feed product improvements.9:28–14:27 · Guest disagreement 6/10 Distributed Team Model and Customer Segments Nathan presses Mark on the venture debt structure with Lighter Capital. When Mark refuses to answer citing NDAs, Nathan pushes back, pointing out that Lighter Capital's model is public revenue-based financing.14:27–18:57 · Guest disagreement 7/10 Growth Trajectory and Metric Boundaries Tension peaks when Mark refuses to give specific growth metrics and Nathan questions why he agreed to appear on the show. Mark firmly pushes back that he had explicitly set boundaries via email before the recording.18:57–20:02 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid Fire Round Nathan guides Mark through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions to close out the episode smoothly.1:58–4:33 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Founding Origins and Marketplace Strategy Nathan inquires about platform distribution channels, comparing Salesforce to SAP. Mark explains the cultural differences between the Salesforce AppExchange ecosystem and SAP's long-cycle customization mindset.4:33–7:22 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Product Lines and Account Expansion Strategy Nathan presses on expansion mechanics and assumes four separate upsell products drive revenue growth. Mark corrects him, clarifying those are merely workflow templates and expansion is driven primarily by seat additions.7:22–9:28 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Customer Success Structure and Sales Alignment Nathan probes how customer success is incentivized and when expansion deals transition back to account executives. Mark details why CS remains non-quota carrying to maintain customer trust and feed product improvements.9:28–14:27 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Distributed Team Model and Customer Segments Nathan presses Mark on the venture debt structure with Lighter Capital. When Mark refuses to answer citing NDAs, Nathan pushes back, pointing out that Lighter Capital's model is public revenue-based financing.14:27–18:57 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Growth Trajectory and Metric Boundaries Tension peaks when Mark refuses to give specific growth metrics and Nathan questions why he agreed to appear on the show. Mark firmly pushes back that he had explicitly set boundaries via email before the recording.18:57–20:02 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid Fire Round Nathan guides Mark through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions to close out the episode smoothly.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 45.9% · guest 54.1%0:00 · Nathan 45.9% · guest 54.1%3:00 · Nathan 27.2% · guest 72.8%3:00 · Nathan 27.2% · guest 72.8%6:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%6:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%9:00 · Nathan 29.4% · guest 70.6%9:00 · Nathan 29.4% · guest 70.6%12:00 · Nathan 39.9% · guest 60.1%12:00 · Nathan 39.9% · guest 60.1%15:00 · Nathan 32.7% · guest 67.3%15:00 · Nathan 32.7% · guest 67.3%18:00 · Nathan 57.2% · guest 42.8%18:00 · Nathan 57.2% · guest 42.8%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 15:15 Mark defends pre-interview email boundaries

Mark pushes back strongly against Nathan's line of questioning, stating he explicitly informed Nathan by email that he would not reveal revenue numbers.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 15:15 Nathan questions guest's willingness to appear

Nathan directly challenges Mark, asking why he agreed to come on a numbers-driven show if he was unwilling to share basic SaaS metrics.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 5:09 Mark corrects Nathan's module monetization assumption

Mark corrects Nathan's misconception that four standalone add-ons drive account expansion, explaining they are simply templates over their core platform.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 13:13 Nathan calls out standard debt financing mechanics

Nathan counters Mark's NDA defense by demonstrating industry knowledge of Lighter Capital's public revenue-based financing model versus traditional term loans.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Founding Origins and Marketplace Strategy 5512 Nathan inquires about platform distribution channels, comparing Salesforce to SAP. Mark explains the cultural differences between the Salesforce AppExchange ecosystem and SAP's long-cycle customization mindset.
Product Lines and Account Expansion Strategy 6634 Nathan presses on expansion mechanics and assumes four separate upsell products drive revenue growth. Mark corrects him, clarifying those are merely workflow templates and expansion is driven primarily by seat additions.
Customer Success Structure and Sales Alignment 5312 Nathan probes how customer success is incentivized and when expansion deals transition back to account executives. Mark details why CS remains non-quota carrying to maintain customer trust and feed product improvements.
Distributed Team Model and Customer Segments 7367 Nathan presses Mark on the venture debt structure with Lighter Capital. When Mark refuses to answer citing NDAs, Nathan pushes back, pointing out that Lighter Capital's model is public revenue-based financing.
Growth Trajectory and Metric Boundaries 6476 Tension peaks when Mark refuses to give specific growth metrics and Nathan questions why he agreed to appear on the show. Mark firmly pushes back that he had explicitly set boundaries via email before the recording.
The Famous Five Rapid Fire Round 2111 Nathan guides Mark through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions to close out the episode smoothly.

Statements from this episode (10)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Aubin: AppBuddy enterprise ACV is doubling year over year
“It's been doubling a year over year for the enterprise segment.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 1:33
Opinion
Aubin: Salesforce AppExchange outperforms SAP AppCenter due to enterprise buyer mindset
“I would say the Salesforce channel is a lot better, right? So the problem with the SAP app ecosystem is that they're not necessarily socialized to be an app ecosystem as much as Salesforce is. Salesforce has done a really good job socializing their customers t…”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 2:36
Disclosure
Aubin: AppBuddy brings AEs back into accounts once CS qualifies expansion
“We do have a dedicated customer success team that handles expansion. We really believe In investing in customer success, and it's definitely paid dividends for us, but when the expansion becomes a new opportunity, the AE comes back into the account.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 7:32
Insight
Aubin: Customer success roles shouldn't carry quotas to remain trusted advisors
“We don't actually make our CS roles a quota carrying. We feel that we really, first and foremost, want the CS role to be a trusted contact for the account that where, where they feel like they can give them both the good news and the bad news, right?”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 8:32
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Aubin: AppBuddy has around 30 employees
“So we're around 30 something people.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 9:38
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Aubin: AppBuddy has scaled to close to 550 customers
“We're at about five, close to five 50.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 10:25
Disclosure
Aubin: AppBuddy has raised $4.6 million in debt and equity
“We have a total of 4.6 million both debt and equity financing.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 11:05
Disclosure
Aubin: AppBuddy was bootstrapped through 2017
“No, we, I mean, we were bootstrapped all the way through 2017.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 11:20
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Aubin: OEM partnerships generate AppBuddy's most predictable revenue
“Actually, it ends up being some of the most predictable revenue that we have because of the partners that we're partnered with.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 17:05
Disclosure
Aubin: AppBuddy targets a CAC payback period under 12 months
“We like to get below 12 months revenue payback period.”
Mark Aubin Aug 31, 2019 ▶ 18:47
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