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Jul 8, 2020 · 15m · top-founders

MailUpGroup Market Cap Is $65m, CEO Feels Undervalued

Nazareno Gorni · 7m spoken Nathan Latka · 5m spoken Eric Yuan · 4s spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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MailUp Group CEO Nazareno Gorni discusses the company's growth to €60 million in revenue across 22,000 customers, breaking down its multi-tiered SaaS and wholesale SMS business lines. He also addresses why public markets undervalue the group's €65 million capitalization relative to its pure recurring software assets.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 40% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.2 Guest teaching 2.4 Guest disagreement 1.2 Nathan pushing back 3.0
05100:0010:001:32–4:09 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 MailUp Group Overview and Upstream Market Expansion Nathan pulls up historical data from their interview a year prior, referencing past ARPU and customer metrics to assess their move upstream. Nazareno willingly provides top-line numbers and explains their customer profile across different business units.4:09–6:47 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Fast-Growing SaaS Product Engines: Datatrics and BEE Nathan breaks down Agile Telecom's commodity SMS model versus high-margin SaaS, performing quick mental math on revenue per employee based on gross profit margin. Nazareno clarifies how the telecom division operates compared to their recurring software products.6:48–9:18 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 MailUp Core Platform, Public Listing, and Capitalization Nathan asks detailed questions about MailUp's public listing on the AIM Italy market, capital raises, and founder dilution. Nazareno walks through their capitalization history collaboratively without friction.9:19–12:55 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 SaaS Retention Metrics, Negative Net Churn, and Pricing Nathan immediately derives net expansion rates from churn figures and pushes back against Nazareno's assertion that the company is undervalued by separating SMS pass-through volume from pure SaaS revenue. Nazareno defends his view by citing comparable asset transaction valuations.12:55–15:00 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Famous Five: Leadership Insights and Routine The conversation transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire format. Nazareno compliments the show and Nathan wraps up with a summary of the group's unit economics.1:32–4:09 · Guest teaching 2/10 MailUp Group Overview and Upstream Market Expansion Nathan pulls up historical data from their interview a year prior, referencing past ARPU and customer metrics to assess their move upstream. Nazareno willingly provides top-line numbers and explains their customer profile across different business units.4:09–6:47 · Guest teaching 3/10 Fast-Growing SaaS Product Engines: Datatrics and BEE Nathan breaks down Agile Telecom's commodity SMS model versus high-margin SaaS, performing quick mental math on revenue per employee based on gross profit margin. Nazareno clarifies how the telecom division operates compared to their recurring software products.6:48–9:18 · Guest teaching 2/10 MailUp Core Platform, Public Listing, and Capitalization Nathan asks detailed questions about MailUp's public listing on the AIM Italy market, capital raises, and founder dilution. Nazareno walks through their capitalization history collaboratively without friction.9:19–12:55 · Guest teaching 4/10 SaaS Retention Metrics, Negative Net Churn, and Pricing Nathan immediately derives net expansion rates from churn figures and pushes back against Nazareno's assertion that the company is undervalued by separating SMS pass-through volume from pure SaaS revenue. Nazareno defends his view by citing comparable asset transaction valuations.12:55–15:00 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five: Leadership Insights and Routine The conversation transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire format. Nazareno compliments the show and Nathan wraps up with a summary of the group's unit economics.1:32–4:09 · Guest disagreement 1/10 MailUp Group Overview and Upstream Market Expansion Nathan pulls up historical data from their interview a year prior, referencing past ARPU and customer metrics to assess their move upstream. Nazareno willingly provides top-line numbers and explains their customer profile across different business units.4:09–6:47 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Fast-Growing SaaS Product Engines: Datatrics and BEE Nathan breaks down Agile Telecom's commodity SMS model versus high-margin SaaS, performing quick mental math on revenue per employee based on gross profit margin. Nazareno clarifies how the telecom division operates compared to their recurring software products.6:48–9:18 · Guest disagreement 0/10 MailUp Core Platform, Public Listing, and Capitalization Nathan asks detailed questions about MailUp's public listing on the AIM Italy market, capital raises, and founder dilution. Nazareno walks through their capitalization history collaboratively without friction.9:19–12:55 · Guest disagreement 4/10 SaaS Retention Metrics, Negative Net Churn, and Pricing Nathan immediately derives net expansion rates from churn figures and pushes back against Nazareno's assertion that the company is undervalued by separating SMS pass-through volume from pure SaaS revenue. Nazareno defends his view by citing comparable asset transaction valuations.12:55–15:00 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Famous Five: Leadership Insights and Routine The conversation transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire format. Nazareno compliments the show and Nathan wraps up with a summary of the group's unit economics.1:32–4:09 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 MailUp Group Overview and Upstream Market Expansion Nathan pulls up historical data from their interview a year prior, referencing past ARPU and customer metrics to assess their move upstream. Nazareno willingly provides top-line numbers and explains their customer profile across different business units.4:09–6:47 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Fast-Growing SaaS Product Engines: Datatrics and BEE Nathan breaks down Agile Telecom's commodity SMS model versus high-margin SaaS, performing quick mental math on revenue per employee based on gross profit margin. Nazareno clarifies how the telecom division operates compared to their recurring software products.6:48–9:18 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 MailUp Core Platform, Public Listing, and Capitalization Nathan asks detailed questions about MailUp's public listing on the AIM Italy market, capital raises, and founder dilution. Nazareno walks through their capitalization history collaboratively without friction.9:19–12:55 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 SaaS Retention Metrics, Negative Net Churn, and Pricing Nathan immediately derives net expansion rates from churn figures and pushes back against Nazareno's assertion that the company is undervalued by separating SMS pass-through volume from pure SaaS revenue. Nazareno defends his view by citing comparable asset transaction valuations.12:55–15:00 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five: Leadership Insights and Routine The conversation transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire format. Nazareno compliments the show and Nathan wraps up with a summary of the group's unit economics.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 67.8% · guest 32.2%0:00 · Nathan 67.8% · guest 32.2%3:00 · Nathan 22.5% · guest 77.5%3:00 · Nathan 22.5% · guest 77.5%6:00 · Nathan 27.1% · guest 72.9%6:00 · Nathan 27.1% · guest 72.9%9:00 · Nathan 37.4% · guest 62.6%9:00 · Nathan 37.4% · guest 62.6%12:00 · Nathan 30.9% · guest 69.1%12:00 · Nathan 30.9% · guest 69.1%15:00 · Nathan 98% · guest 2%15:00 · Nathan 98% · guest 2%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 11:43 Nazareno rejects the host's valuation breakdown

Nazareno directly counters Nathan's claim that SMS revenue is negligible in valuation, citing active M&A multiples indicating the telecom asset alone is worth 30-35 million euros.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 11:21 Nathan challenges the undervalued claim

Nathan disputes Nazareno's premise that MailUp is undervalued at 1x total revenue by arguing the telecom volume should be discounted to gross profit, leaving SaaS at a reasonable 3x multiple.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 11:47 Nazareno explains standalone transaction comparables

Nazareno educates Nathan on telecom aggregator valuation dynamics, proving that carving out Agile Telecom implies the SaaS component is only trading at 1.5x.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 10:20 Nathan instantly derives expansion revenue

Nathan instantly deduces the exact implied net expansion percentage (20%) directly upon hearing the gross churn and negative net churn numbers.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
MailUp Group Overview and Upstream Market Expansion 5213 Nathan pulls up historical data from their interview a year prior, referencing past ARPU and customer metrics to assess their move upstream. Nazareno willingly provides top-line numbers and explains their customer profile across different business units.
Fast-Growing SaaS Product Engines: Datatrics and BEE 6313 Nathan breaks down Agile Telecom's commodity SMS model versus high-margin SaaS, performing quick mental math on revenue per employee based on gross profit margin. Nazareno clarifies how the telecom division operates compared to their recurring software products.
MailUp Core Platform, Public Listing, and Capitalization 5202 Nathan asks detailed questions about MailUp's public listing on the AIM Italy market, capital raises, and founder dilution. Nazareno walks through their capitalization history collaboratively without friction.
SaaS Retention Metrics, Negative Net Churn, and Pricing 7446 Nathan immediately derives net expansion rates from churn figures and pushes back against Nazareno's assertion that the company is undervalued by separating SMS pass-through volume from pure SaaS revenue. Nazareno defends his view by citing comparable asset transaction valuations.
The Famous Five: Leadership Insights and Routine 3101 The conversation transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire format. Nazareno compliments the show and Nathan wraps up with a summary of the group's unit economics.

Statements from this episode (17)

Assertion Partly supported
Gorni: MailUp Group's largest client generates €10M of €60M revenue
“The largest clients is about ten million euros, just one. Over about 60. But the average clients could be around 2000 euros per year.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 2:22
Prediction Partly held up
Gorni: MailUp Group will reach €60M revenue in 2020, growing over 50%
“This year, our overall revenue will be around sixty million. So six zero. So growing more than 50%.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 2:55
Prediction Held up
Gorni: MailUp Group will reach around 22,000 customers by year-end
“Could be overall to 22,000. So not that much compared to last year.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 3:13
Assertion Supported
Gorni: BEE reached $3M and Datatrics reached $2M in revenue
“For example, B is, is going from one million to three million, so three times, and that is going from two million one million to two million dollars, so very good.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 4:50
Disclosure
Gorni: Agile Telecom operates with an 8% to 10% margin
“We are buying SMS and selling SMS. We are in the middle and but the margin is about eight to 10%.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 6:10
Disclosure
Gorni: Agile Telecom generates €40M with just 15 employees
“The good part is that it's just 15 people. So just 15 employees are able to manage all this revenue and all this growth.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 6:21
Assertion Supported
Gorni: MailUp Group raised €3M at IPO on €6M revenue
“Three million euros. Our revenue at that time was six.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 8:11
Assertion Supported
Gorni: MailUp Group raised €6M from institutional investors in 2017
“So two years ago we raised another six million euros. So another capital increase from mainly from institutional investors.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 8:22
Disclosure
Gorni: MailUp Group founders retain an 11.5% stake after dilution
“Originally we had the 20%. Today we have 11 and a half percent. So after two capital increases.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 9:06
Assertion Supported
Gorni: MailUp Group employs 240 people total
“240.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 9:16
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Gorni: MailUp Group SaaS products average around 12% annual gross churn
“An average could be around 12%.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 9:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Gorni: MailUp Group's BEE plugin achieves negative 6% to 7% net churn
“It's about six, seven percent negative.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 10:23
Disclosure
Gorni: MailUp Group updates software pricing roughly every six months
“Now, and also this year, so we are changing pricing every six months, more or less.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 10:39
Opinion
Gorni: MailUp SaaS business should be valued 3-4x higher
“It could be a good multipolar if you take the SMS business, which is one times the revenue usually, but in terms of SaaS business we should be valued at least three, four times more, so we see a gap in this.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 11:05
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Gorni: Agile Telecom is worth €30M to €35M standalone
“Yes, but if you, if we sell Agile Telecom today the value could be around 30, thirty-five million. And there are deals in this field, and this is the valuation of Agile Telecom.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 11:53
Assertion Partly supported
Gorni: Datatrics ARPU is 10x higher than MailUp
“Because Datatrix is 10 times more expensive than MailUp, the average revenue per client, which means that we are, we would lose an opportunity selling MailUp alone.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 12:30
Assertion Partly supported
Gorni: Datatrics grew customer count from 35 to 300 in one year
“About 300. It was a startup one year ago it was a 35, so... They are growing a lot, 10 times.”
Nazareno Gorni Jul 8, 2020 ▶ 12:45
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