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Sep 12, 2020 · 16m · top-founders

VaporWare Charges $25k to Build SaaS MVP, $1.2m 2019 Revenue

Dan Moore · 9m spoken Nathan Latka · 4m spoken Eric Yuan · 4s spoken Vivek Bhaskaran · 2s spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Vaporware CEO Dan Moore explains how his product consultancy generated $1.2 million in revenue by building $25,000 to $100,000 lean MVPs for SaaS founders. The conversation explores agency pod structures, sustainable company culture, and the financial advantages of outsourced product development over expensive in-house tech hiring.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 32.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.6 Guest teaching 3.4 Guest disagreement 1.4 Nathan pushing back 3.8
05100:0010:000:00–2:48 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Episode Hook on Product Manager Compensation Nathan introduces Dan Moore and immediately clarifies the core business model, ensuring listeners understand Vaporware is a dev agency rather than a pure SaaS company. Dan explains the origin of the business pivoting from failed SaaS attempts into consulting.2:49–5:31 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Vaporware Pricing Structure and Pod Team Organization Nathan asks Dan to break down pod composition and pricing tiers for launching an MVP. Dan outlines the team ratio of one designer, two developers, and half a product manager per pod.5:32–7:39 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Industry Benchmark Salaries for In-House Tech Roles Nathan systematically benchmarks US market salaries for each role in the pod to compare agency costs with in-house hiring. Dan provides current compensation figures, noting PMs command the highest salary.7:40–11:43 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 MVP Strategy, Code Reusability, and Project Handoffs Nathan forcefully presses Dan on agency handoff friction, asking if clients are left with useless throwaway code and summarizing the offering as a 25k super-expensive slide deck. Dan defends the concept by emphasizing that MVPs are built specifically to test hypotheses.11:43–15:32 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Financial Performance, Work Culture, and Revenue Sharing Nathan digs into 2019 financial metrics and poses a hypothetical deal structure involving equity trade-offs. Dan explains their revenue sharing model and how they occasionally take equity like early-stage advisors.0:00–2:48 · Guest teaching 2/10 Episode Hook on Product Manager Compensation Nathan introduces Dan Moore and immediately clarifies the core business model, ensuring listeners understand Vaporware is a dev agency rather than a pure SaaS company. Dan explains the origin of the business pivoting from failed SaaS attempts into consulting.2:49–5:31 · Guest teaching 3/10 Vaporware Pricing Structure and Pod Team Organization Nathan asks Dan to break down pod composition and pricing tiers for launching an MVP. Dan outlines the team ratio of one designer, two developers, and half a product manager per pod.5:32–7:39 · Guest teaching 4/10 Industry Benchmark Salaries for In-House Tech Roles Nathan systematically benchmarks US market salaries for each role in the pod to compare agency costs with in-house hiring. Dan provides current compensation figures, noting PMs command the highest salary.7:40–11:43 · Guest teaching 5/10 MVP Strategy, Code Reusability, and Project Handoffs Nathan forcefully presses Dan on agency handoff friction, asking if clients are left with useless throwaway code and summarizing the offering as a 25k super-expensive slide deck. Dan defends the concept by emphasizing that MVPs are built specifically to test hypotheses.11:43–15:32 · Guest teaching 3/10 Financial Performance, Work Culture, and Revenue Sharing Nathan digs into 2019 financial metrics and poses a hypothetical deal structure involving equity trade-offs. Dan explains their revenue sharing model and how they occasionally take equity like early-stage advisors.0:00–2:48 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Episode Hook on Product Manager Compensation Nathan introduces Dan Moore and immediately clarifies the core business model, ensuring listeners understand Vaporware is a dev agency rather than a pure SaaS company. Dan explains the origin of the business pivoting from failed SaaS attempts into consulting.2:49–5:31 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Vaporware Pricing Structure and Pod Team Organization Nathan asks Dan to break down pod composition and pricing tiers for launching an MVP. Dan outlines the team ratio of one designer, two developers, and half a product manager per pod.5:32–7:39 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Industry Benchmark Salaries for In-House Tech Roles Nathan systematically benchmarks US market salaries for each role in the pod to compare agency costs with in-house hiring. Dan provides current compensation figures, noting PMs command the highest salary.7:40–11:43 · Guest disagreement 3/10 MVP Strategy, Code Reusability, and Project Handoffs Nathan forcefully presses Dan on agency handoff friction, asking if clients are left with useless throwaway code and summarizing the offering as a 25k super-expensive slide deck. Dan defends the concept by emphasizing that MVPs are built specifically to test hypotheses.11:43–15:32 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Financial Performance, Work Culture, and Revenue Sharing Nathan digs into 2019 financial metrics and poses a hypothetical deal structure involving equity trade-offs. Dan explains their revenue sharing model and how they occasionally take equity like early-stage advisors.0:00–2:48 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Episode Hook on Product Manager Compensation Nathan introduces Dan Moore and immediately clarifies the core business model, ensuring listeners understand Vaporware is a dev agency rather than a pure SaaS company. Dan explains the origin of the business pivoting from failed SaaS attempts into consulting.2:49–5:31 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Vaporware Pricing Structure and Pod Team Organization Nathan asks Dan to break down pod composition and pricing tiers for launching an MVP. Dan outlines the team ratio of one designer, two developers, and half a product manager per pod.5:32–7:39 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Industry Benchmark Salaries for In-House Tech Roles Nathan systematically benchmarks US market salaries for each role in the pod to compare agency costs with in-house hiring. Dan provides current compensation figures, noting PMs command the highest salary.7:40–11:43 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 MVP Strategy, Code Reusability, and Project Handoffs Nathan forcefully presses Dan on agency handoff friction, asking if clients are left with useless throwaway code and summarizing the offering as a 25k super-expensive slide deck. Dan defends the concept by emphasizing that MVPs are built specifically to test hypotheses.11:43–15:32 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Financial Performance, Work Culture, and Revenue Sharing Nathan digs into 2019 financial metrics and poses a hypothetical deal structure involving equity trade-offs. Dan explains their revenue sharing model and how they occasionally take equity like early-stage advisors.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 66.2% · guest 33.8%0:00 · Nathan 66.2% · guest 33.8%3:00 · Nathan 19.8% · guest 80.2%3:00 · Nathan 19.8% · guest 80.2%6:00 · Nathan 27.1% · guest 72.9%6:00 · Nathan 27.1% · guest 72.9%9:00 · Nathan 19.3% · guest 80.7%9:00 · Nathan 19.3% · guest 80.7%12:00 · Nathan 27.4% · guest 72.6%12:00 · Nathan 27.4% · guest 72.6%15:00 · Nathan 37.9% · guest 62.1%15:00 · Nathan 37.9% · guest 62.1%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 9:20 Defending throwaway MVP code

Dan pushes back against the notion that agency code is useless by explaining that testing market demand requires purposeful validation rather than premature full-scale architecture.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 10:50 Super expensive slide deck framing

Nathan bluntly reduces Dan's service to an InVision prototype on steroids that charges a minimum of 25 thousand dollars.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 8:13 Handoff friction in early stage MVPs

Dan educates Nathan on why early MVPs in accelerators aim to answer a single hypothesis rather than build infinite scalable infrastructure immediately.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 7:39 Identifying agency handoff friction

Nathan draws on his own agency experience to challenge Dan on the hidden friction between fixed-term agency deliveries and internal team handoffs.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Episode Hook on Product Manager Compensation 4212 Nathan introduces Dan Moore and immediately clarifies the core business model, ensuring listeners understand Vaporware is a dev agency rather than a pure SaaS company. Dan explains the origin of the business pivoting from failed SaaS attempts into consulting.
Vaporware Pricing Structure and Pod Team Organization 5302 Nathan asks Dan to break down pod composition and pricing tiers for launching an MVP. Dan outlines the team ratio of one designer, two developers, and half a product manager per pod.
Industry Benchmark Salaries for In-House Tech Roles 6413 Nathan systematically benchmarks US market salaries for each role in the pod to compare agency costs with in-house hiring. Dan provides current compensation figures, noting PMs command the highest salary.
MVP Strategy, Code Reusability, and Project Handoffs 7537 Nathan forcefully presses Dan on agency handoff friction, asking if clients are left with useless throwaway code and summarizing the offering as a 25k super-expensive slide deck. Dan defends the concept by emphasizing that MVPs are built specifically to test hypotheses.
Financial Performance, Work Culture, and Revenue Sharing 6325 Nathan digs into 2019 financial metrics and poses a hypothetical deal structure involving equity trade-offs. Dan explains their revenue sharing model and how they occasionally take equity like early-stage advisors.

Statements from this episode (10)

Disclosure
Moore: Vaporware charges $25k for early MVPs, $100k+ for mature businesses
“Typically like brand new, getting the market, doing some manual MVPs or lean customer development, like you're talking in 25 K kind of thing all the way up to existing businesses that have done this a lot and are willing to invest a lot more, kind of have more…”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 3:08
Insight
Moore recommends MVP pod ratio of half PM, one designer, two developers
“I would suggest one product manager. And we actually split that. So that's myself between the two pods. But then one designer on a pod and then two developers. So it's kind of half product manager twice as much of that on design and twice as much of that on de…”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 4:11
Assertion Supported
Moore: Experienced US product manager salaries start around $150k
“Probably where I'm sitting like we've gotten job offers from previous clients and stuff like that. I mean, you're looking at starting around a 150 K for that level of experience for a product manager.”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 5:19
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: Hiring an in-house tech designer costs $120,000 to $130,000
“They're pretty high up there as well. So probably around 120, 130, something like that.”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 5:35
Insight
Moore: Product managers do not need specific industry backgrounds to succeed
“They don't have to have a background in the industry itself, so we do a lot of different B to B industry work. And you know, that helps you cut some of the research time down, but most of our clients bring that to us as opposed to us having to do that research…”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 7:17
Insight
Moore: MVPs should test one specific hypothesis, not build infinitely scalable code
“The goal of the MVP is always to learn one specific thing. So with that specific learning of here's the one thing that we're testing out here's the one thing we want to know, it's not necessarily this graceful handoff that scales into infinity. It's a very qui…”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 8:45
Insight
Moore: A software product does not need to exist to be sold
“To sell a product it doesn't have to exist. So we're not building something that doesn't exist. We're building something that tests a specific problem.”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 9:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: Vaporware generated $1.2M in 2019 revenue with eight employees
“So we were at eight last year did about 1.2 million.”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 12:04
Disclosure
Moore: Vaporware capped workweeks at 40 hours with one day for internal growth
“So we stick to 40 hour work weeks. We did something for all of 2019, which was four four days a week on client work and one day on whatever you want, which a lot of it was growing the business kind of thing and going after new customers.”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 12:44
Disclosure
Moore: Vaporware took equity deals for roughly 10% of clients in 2019
“So last year, I think we did it twice out of the 20 or so clients that we were looking at. So about 10% it was based on the people it was based on as both the client people and the people inside of our company willing to take that risk.”
Dan Moore Sep 12, 2020 ▶ 14:19
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