Aug 25, 2023 · 52m · more-or-less
#11: Why hybrid work doesn’t work, long live the phone call · More or Less Podcast
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In this episode of the More or Less podcast, hosts Jessica Lessin, Sam Lessin, Brit Morin, and Dave Morin debate the operational failures of hybrid work models, examine the benefits of spontaneous phone calls, and analyze breaking news surrounding NVIDIA's earnings.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 100% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 5.3 Guest teaching 3.3 Guest disagreement 3.9 The hosts pushing back 3.8
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 21:45 Sam denouncing hybrid work as a clusterfuck
Sam forcefully rejects compromise work models, declaring three days a week to be an unworkable disaster that satisfies nobody.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 22:04 Jessica dismissing co-hosts' management opinionsJessica bluntly shuts down Dave and Sam's criticisms of hybrid work by telling them their views are worthless until they have run a newsroom.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 46:08 Dave schooling Sam on chip fabricationDave immediately steps in to correct Sam's assertion that NVIDIA is a hardware manufacturer, clarifying that NVIDIA is purely a designer.
The host holds their own ▶ 18:05 Dave breaking down Steve Jobs' architecture strategyDave demonstrates deep insider domain knowledge by explaining how Steve Jobs architected Apple with private offices to protect engineering focus while designing communal intersections for spontaneous collaboration.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| More or Less Podcast Opening Sequence | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | Lighthearted introductory banter among the co-hosts covering post-COVID recovery, Sam working from his pool house, and light teasing over his tan and new wardrobe. | |
| Tracking San Francisco's Foot Traffic and Mobility Data | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | Brit presents cell phone mobility data showing San Francisco foot traffic at 27% of 2019 levels, while Sam playfully mocks seed investors relying on quantitative charts. | |
| Office Mandates and the Flaws of Hybrid Work | 6 | 4 | 5 | 4 | Sam aggressively criticizes the three-day hybrid schedule as the worst possible compromise, while Jessica defends set in-office schedules and Brit cites Gartner hybrid projections. | |
| Evaluating Remote vs. In-Person Culture in Seed Investing | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | Dave outlines the operational realities of hardware versus software seed investing, while Brit immediately challenges Sam's pro-office venture fund proposal by pointing out he works out of his pool house. | |
| Architectural Focus, Inclusion, and the Future of Work Poll | 7 | 5 | 6 | 6 | Dave explains Apple's private office layout versus Facebook's open floor plans, Sam calls hybrid work a complete clusterfuck, and Jessica pushes back stating their startup opinions mean little until they run a newsroom. | |
| The Lost Art and Efficiency of Direct Phone Calls | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | The panel coalesces around the efficiency of direct phone calls over Calendly links, sharing routines from Jamie Dimon, Hollywood call windows, and Jessica's early VC reporting tactics on the 280 commute. | |
| Hybrid Hardware Challenges and Zoom's Pivot to Chat | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | Dave and Sam analyze hybrid meeting hardware limits and Zoom's strategic pivot to messaging, while Jessica questions whether smartphone-based software solutions represent a defensible business. | |
| Curing Calendar Bloat and Warren Buffett's Meeting Rules | 6 | 4 | 5 | 4 | Sam suggests an AI tool to automatically purge recurring meetings, while Dave explains Warren Buffett's philosophy of avoiding advance scheduling to prevent operating on stale information. | |
| Brainstorming "Please Disturb": Rethinking Phone Call Status | 6 | 3 | 4 | 4 | The hosts brainstorm a Please Disturb OS-level toggle inspired by AIM status messages, while Jessica pushes back on Sam's resistance to making unsolicited phone calls. | |
| NVIDIA Earnings Surge and AI Valuation Debates | 7 | 5 | 4 | 5 | The group discusses NVIDIA earnings and AI multiples; Dave sharply corrects Sam by noting NVIDIA designs chips rather than manufacturing them, and Sam concedes. | |
| Crypto Market Defense and Wardrobe Teasing | 4 | 2 | 4 | 4 | Sam defends crypto's rationalized valuations against AI hype, but Jessica and Brit promptly tease him by contrasting the crypto winter with his wardrobe habits. | |
| Pitching the "Third Wheel" Listener Call-In Format | 3 | 1 | 2 | 2 | The hosts pitch an audience call-in segment called Third Wheel, banter about Sam's OpenPhone portfolio investment, and conclude the episode. |
Statements from this episode (24)
Brit Morin: SF downtown mobile activity sits at 27% of 2019 baseline
“And San Francisco's is only at like 27% versus what it was in 2019. I mean, everyone is down across the board, but the next lowest is Chicago at like 45%. And even New York, which ranks the highest, is only at like 65 Percent versus the norm of 2019.”
Dave Morin: The majority of startups have chosen to stay remote
“You've got startups that have made the hard choice to stay remote. We've got, I would actually say that's the majority case in the startup world.”
Brit Morin: Offline Ventures ignores remote policies unless founders span continents
“We, I don't think we do unless like the founders are on different continents or something. I mean, most, most of the time, these are like two or three person companies when we're funding them, so.”
Dave Morin: Founder breakups, not business failures, kill most seed startups
“Like the thing that kills most seed companies is actually founder breakups, not the business not working.”
Sam Lessin: A fund backing only five-day in-person startups would outperform
“I bet that there'd be an appetite right now for a venture fund called six day a week or five day a week in person. And it only funds companies that are in person with an in-person pledge five days a week. Like I actually think they would outperform.”
Jessica Lessin: In-office companies will outperform remote ones
“I believe that companies that have maintained a strong in-office culture will perform better.”
Sam Lessin: Three-day-a-week hybrid work is a complete clusterfuck
“To me, three days a week, the hybrid thing seems like a complete fucking clusterfuck. That's a compromise because of where we were and where we want to get to, right? Which is back to full in-person in a lot of cases.”
Brit Morin: Tech will return to in-person work with flexible hours
“I'm voting more also because there are statistics around what happened with like mental health and community involved, community involvement and, you know, belonging since 2019. And it is, I mean, everyone I think knows this, but it's totally plummeted. Down t…”
Dave Morin: Tech work will remain deeply hybrid from here on out
“My simple answer is more. My request for startups is that I think it's a deeply hybrid world from here on out. I think there are, like, evolutionary forces at work here.”
Jessica Lessin: Two-minute calls achieve what takes half a day asynchronously
“What I can get done in a two minute call would span half a day in like asynchronous.”
Brit Morin: LA Entertainment Industry Keeps 4 to 6 PM Free for Phone Calls
“In LA, it's very common from, like, four to six PM to not have anything booked in your schedule, and that's just, like, known as the free time that you're supposed to call people.”
Dave Morin: Every social communication platform eventually becomes a chat product
“I mean, every social communicator, every, whether it's Yahoo, AOL, Facebook, everything becomes chat in the end.”
Sam Lessin: Hybrid Conference Room Tech Is a Joke Needing Software Solutions
“The meeting conference to remote thing is a fucking joke. And it just, I feel like it might be a software solution, not a hardware solution.”
Dave Morin: Scheduling meetings in advance relies on outdated information
“People reaching out for meetings usually have a decision to make, or they are trying to work through an idea, and it is happening in the present. By asking for a meeting and then punching it out into the future, you're actually operating on bad information.”
Dave Morin: AIM status is the greatest product in internet history
“Aim status, I still to this day believe is the greatest product in the history of the internet, like in, because you knew somebody was there.”
Sam Lessin: Facebook built 15 unreleased takes on presence features
“Facebook did 15 takes that we didn't roll out.”
Dave Morin: Apple needs a 'dinner time' family phone shutoff feature
“I sent an email down to Apple the other day asking for a feature called dinner time, which is a feature parents can use to shut all the family's phones down, make everybody come to dinner, including the parents, and the kids can do it too”
Sam Lessin: NVIDIA stock will go up regardless of earnings report
“It literally doesn't matter what they report, the stock will go up.”
Jessica Lessin: Hugging Face valued at over 100x annualized revenue
“The new funding valued the startup at more than a hundred times its annualized revenue.”
Sam Lessin: NVIDIA's hardware design advantage is a ticking time bomb
“Going from being a designer of hardware that we know has a ticking time bomb until everyone else catches up to like the awesome business vision of vertically integrated stack where we own AI and the data around it and can do differentiated stuff. Great story. …”