Mar 28, 2025 · 59m · more-or-less
The Signal Scandal & DOGE Drama! (with Ben Smith and Nicholas Carlson) | More or Less #92 · More or Less Podcast
Jessica Lessin · 20m spoken Ben Smith · 14m spoken Nicholas Carlson · 9m spoken Brit Morin · 9m spoken
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In this episode of More or Less, hosts Jessica Lessin and Brit Morin are joined by media veterans Ben Smith and Nicholas Carlson to analyze The Atlantic's accidental Signal chat leak, the ideological reality behind DOGE, tech executives' shifting political alliances, and practical AI adoption across business and journalism.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 54.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 4.3 Guest disagreement 2.5 The hosts pushing back 2.5
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 27:05 Smith dismisses Silicon Valley's defense of DOGE
Smith directly dismisses the naive Valley premise that DOGE is merely an engineering efficiency exercise, revealing that DC insiders see tech coders as foolish PR cover for hardline DeSantis operatives.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 36:40 Lessin challenges Smith's take on Nadella skipping the photoLessin directly challenges Smith's narrative that Microsoft strategically opted out of the Trump tech photo, arguing based on valley dynamics that Musk likely boxed Nadella out amid bitter OpenAI litigation.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 26:49 Smith educates hosts on the partisan legal reality of DOGESmith provides a sharp reality check to the hosts' optimistic West Coast perspective by detailing how connected DC conservative lawyers view the initiative as an aggressive ideological purge.
The host holds their own ▶ 31:04 Lessin details Musk's financial vulnerability and China leverageLessin displays superior business expertise by explaining that Musk's political alignment was heavily driven by Tesla's regulatory obstacles with FSD in China amid rising local competition.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| More or Less Show Title Sequence | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | The episode opens with playful banter featuring AI-generated voice clones of the hosts' husbands, followed by warm introductions of Ben Smith and Nicholas Carlson. Jessica Lessin jokingly pokes fun at Carlson's stealth startup Dynamo and its motto, but the atmosphere remains collaborative and informal. | |
| The Atlantic's Signal Chat Scoop and Initial Reactions | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | The hosts and guests discuss The Atlantic editor Jeffrey Goldberg accidentally being added to an administrative Signal chat. Ben Smith candidly shares his immediate reaction of journalistic envy and explains the concept of reporter luck, while the hosts explore the public relations framing of the leak. | |
| Signal Security, Human Error, and Leaked Military Details | 5 | 6 | 3 | 2 | Brit Morin views the Signal leak through a product and authentication lens, calling it simple human error rather than a security breach. Ben Smith counters by detailing how foreign adversaries target high-value phone screens regardless of encryption, emphasizing the operational danger of Hegseth posting strike coordinates. | |
| Behind the Scoops: Editorial Strategy and Pulitzer Worthiness | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | Carlson and Smith walk through the newsroom editorial mechanics, legal clearances, and White House communications behind publishing leaks. Smith cynically notes that winning Pulitzers for digital startups is often followed closely by major company layoffs. | |
| DOGE Dynamics: Tech Efficiency Versus Ideological Overhaul | 5 | 8 | 6 | 3 | Morin and Lessin share that Silicon Valley views DOGE positively as an earnest push for technical efficiency. Smith sharply reframes the dynamic with inside reporting from DC, quoting a top Republican lawyer who stated that tech coders are merely providing cover for DeSantis lawyers executing an ideological purge. | |
| Elon Musk Sentiment, Tesla's Woes, and Stoop Charging | 8 | 3 | 2 | 3 | Lessin displays authoritative sector knowledge regarding Tesla's shifting sentiment, manufacturing margin vulnerabilities, and Elon Musk's political backing being tied directly to Chinese regulatory approvals for FSD. Carlson lightens the conversation by sharing his unconventional New York stoop-charging routine. | |
| Tech Billionaires Currying Political Favor and Antitrust Fallout | 7 | 5 | 4 | 5 | The panel discusses Big Tech CEOs currying favor with Trump, where Smith points out the acute political risks Zuckerberg faces if the House flips. Lessin pushes back on Smith's reading of Satya Nadella's photo absence, presenting industry reporting that Musk likely refused to share the stage with Nadella due to OpenAI litigation. | |
| AI Startup Accounting Scandals and Rapid Commoditization | 6 | 5 | 4 | 5 | Discussing the ElevenX accounting controversy, Morin attempts to excuse the founder as young and naive about using unverified logos and trial metrics. Carlson, Smith, and Lessin firmly reject that framing, equating the inflated metrics to clear-cut fraud reminiscent of Enron and Ozy Media. | |
| Vibe Coding and Media Innovation with Ben Smith | 4 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Smith details his practical experience with vibe coding in newsrooms, explaining how he quickly coded a script using ChatGPT and Gemini to simulate social media backlash before publishing. Lessin expresses genuine surprise at his technical execution while Morin suggests monetizing disposable tools. | |
| AI Research Tools and the Essence of Journalism | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Carlson describes how Dynamo uses Deep Research to accelerate video verification workflows, and Smith articulates an optimistic philosophy of journalism: AI can handle mid-funnel tasks, but human reporting and trust cannot be automated. | |
| Guest Plugs and DC World Economy Summit Preview | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | The episode wraps up smoothly with plugs for Carlson's Dynamo launch and Smith's upcoming World Economy Summit in Washington, followed by warm standard podcast sign-offs. |
Statements from this episode (22)
Ben Smith: Reporters landing major scoops rely on 'news luck'
“Don't you think, though, that as a reporter, there's something like, there's a kind of news, my only real superstition, that there's a kind of news luck, and some people have it. That was that I had it. Like, sometimes you just wind up in a room. Somebody invi…”
Ben Smith: Signal leak is the first massive breach in Trump's narrative
“Trump has had this remarkable three months of, and I think we looked at, I'm not sure we'll say that he got a lot done. I think the jury is very, very much out on like, wait, what exactly didn't get held up in court and what happened, but of absolutely dominat…”
Brit Morin: Trump Signal chat leak was human error, not tech failure
“This was human error, not a technology error.”
Ben Smith: Silicon Valley wrongly thinks journalists are obsessed with clicks
“This is actually like a common Silicon Valley misconception that we are like obsessed with clicks as opposed to interested in information.”
Ben Smith: Pentagon advised Trump administration officials to use Signal
“And in fact, they had been told by the Pentagon they should be using Signal.”
Ben Smith: Pete Hegseth will survive Signal leak; Trump team blames Waltz
“Nobody's, I think the Trump people's view is you can't start throwing people overboard, so I think no. And in fact, they seem to be madder at Mike Waltz that he had Jeffrey Goldberg's number in his phone than they are mad at Pete Hegseth.”
Ben Smith: The Atlantic's Signal chat scoop will not win a Pulitzer
“No, and Pulitzer only goes to things that look like newspaper articles from the 19 seventies.”
Ben Smith: Media startups winning a Pulitzer guarantees imminent layoffs
“So the, my thesis about Pulitzers is that when a new media company wins a Pulitzer, you can just set the clock on layoffs.”
Brit Morin: Silicon Valley sentiment toward DOGE is roughly 75% positive
“Sentiment is favorable out here for Doge, I would say. Wouldn't you just, I would say it's like 75% positive.”
Brit Morin: Silicon Valley sentiment toward Elon Musk is roughly 60-40 favorable
“I would say not 75%, but maybe sixty-forty favorable to Elon out here, and I think it's because of, there's just so many fanboys and a few fangirls of SpaceX and the rockets, and they caught them on toothpicks, and humanoid robots, and autonomous vehicles, and…”
Brit Morin: BYD is up 30% year-over-year, outperforming Tesla
“The Chinese carmaker BYD is, like, crushing them. Like, they're up 30% year-over-year, already beating Tesla. They just, they're building a new manufacturing plant the size of San Francisco.”
Jessica Lessin: Elon Musk backed Trump partly over Tesla's struggles in China
“If we unwind the clock and ask ourselves why Elon Musk decided to endorse and help elect Donald Trump, I actually think the fate of Tesla in China was a not insignificant part of the equation, and what was happening at the time was the Chinese government hadn'…”
Jessica Lessin: Elon Musk controls SpaceX secondaries based on his daily mood
“There's just no venture capitalist who wants to be on bad terms with him, either because they want in on the next deal, or they just want preferential terms in the SpaceX secondaries, which he controls literally based on how many people emailed him in what ord…”
Ben Smith: House Democrats will convene corruption committees targeting Big Tech CEOs
“If the Democrats take the House, we're talking in 20 months, there will be a corruption committee convened, which will have Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, and whoever talking in great detail, but every penny that was directed, and, you know, and I t…”
Ben Smith: Trump administration is not easing Big Tech antitrust enforcement
“If there's one thing that Trump is not doing, it's laying off the antitrust stuff.”
Jessica Lessin: Meta CMO temporarily relocated to D.C. for antitrust trial testimony
“We published a story recently about that sort of got some documents on the number of hours all the meta executives are expected to testify in the upcoming trial, and the CMO is temporarily moving to DC because of it”
Jessica Lessin: Tech industry will see more accounting scandals among AI startups
“I mean, I think we're going to see a lot more of this. And AI in particular, Seems very predisposed to, like, confusing math.”
Nicholas Carlson: Advanced generative AI features are already becoming weirdly commoditized
“One of the things I've observed about AI recently is it's weirdly commoditized for, like, an incredibly advanced technology. If you want to, like, find a video, a technology that can take a video, And make it so your mouth looks like it's speaking a foreign la…”
Brit Morin: Dumping venture capital money into legal AI startups is foolish
“Got pitched another legal AI startup that's like, yeah, create your legal docs for you in five seconds. There are, like, 50 right now, and people have dumped so much money in this, in the venture ecosystem, that's stupid, and so I do think there are a lot of t…”
Ben Smith: Semafor staff must build their own AI tools, not developers
“I'm not letting them ask Our developers to help them build AI tools. Like you can really in Google app script without knowing anything about, I mean, you can really like vibe code yourself some nice tools”
Ben Smith: AI products built in four hours are completely indefensible businesses
“Also, right, I thought for two seconds, oh yeah, we should charge this as a product. And it's like, well, actually, if I built this in four hours, that's like not defensible. That is the least defensible thing in the world.”
Ben Smith: Original reporting is safe from AI, but writing is vulnerable
“In journalism, there's sort of, at one end is gathering facts that are not on the internet, and putting them on the internet, and then there's a lot of other things, writing and producing in the middle, and at the other end is connecting with, is a human being…”