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Dec 19, 2019 · 22m · how-i-built-this

Live From The HIBT Summit: Kevin Systrom & Mike Krieger Of Instagram

Kevin Systrom · 9m spoken Mike Krieger · 6m spoken Guy Raz · 4m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Recorded live at the 2019 How I Built This Summit, Instagram co-founders Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger join host Guy Raz to reflect on their journey from launching the platform to exiting Facebook. They discuss adjusting to life after hyper-scale success, the ethical responsibilities of tech leadership, and the power of their enduring partnership.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 24% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 1.4 Guest teaching 2.0 Guest disagreement 0.6 Guy pushing back 0.7
05100:0010:0020:000:03–3:59 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Public Radio Station Support and Contribution Appeal Guy Raz opens the episode with a public radio funding pitch before introducing the live summit session and asking Kevin and Mike how it felt to abruptly step away from Instagram. The co-founders reflect warmly on losing their organizational leverage and learning to be beginners again.3:59–6:08 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 Founder Identity, Legacy, and Life After Stepping Away Raz connects Instagram's founding history to the psychological struggle founders face when parting with companies they created. Mike Krieger explains how he decoupled his personal identity from the CTO title and realized his co-founder legacy remains permanent.6:08–8:26 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 The Decision to Leave Facebook and the Endurance of Scaling Raz uses a past quote from Systrom to press him on why the founders actually decided to leave Facebook. Systrom clarifies that after scaling from 30 million to over a billion users, stepping down was comparable to completing an exhausting Ironman triathlon.8:27–11:23 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 Tech Reckoning and Social Responsibility at Global Scale Raz cites a Wired article comparing social platforms to nightclubs where founders leave before the party dies. Krieger and Systrom reject that narrative, explaining that the broader tech reckoning actually created guilt and motivated them to stay longer to champion platform kindness.11:23–14:39 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Mitigating Harassment and Engineering Platform Safety Tools When Raz asks if social media is currently a force for kindness, Systrom frankly answers no, while outlining specific technical efforts like machine-learned anti-bullying filters. Krieger educates on how moderation tools had to evolve from simple block buttons to complex ML clusters as user scale exploded.14:40–18:20 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Unwiring Corporate Habits and Envisioning Future Ventures Raz asks what the founders plan to tackle next given their complete financial freedom. Both explain the process of unlearning rigid corporate planning matrices in order to rediscover organic curiosity and early-stage experimentation.18:20–21:24 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Partnership, Trust, and Complementary Leadership Dynamics Raz explores why Systrom and Krieger's partnership remained intact when so many startup co-founder relationships fracture. Both founders share stories highlighting their complementary personality profiles and deep operational trust.0:03–3:59 · Guest teaching 1/10 Public Radio Station Support and Contribution Appeal Guy Raz opens the episode with a public radio funding pitch before introducing the live summit session and asking Kevin and Mike how it felt to abruptly step away from Instagram. The co-founders reflect warmly on losing their organizational leverage and learning to be beginners again.3:59–6:08 · Guest teaching 1/10 Founder Identity, Legacy, and Life After Stepping Away Raz connects Instagram's founding history to the psychological struggle founders face when parting with companies they created. Mike Krieger explains how he decoupled his personal identity from the CTO title and realized his co-founder legacy remains permanent.6:08–8:26 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Decision to Leave Facebook and the Endurance of Scaling Raz uses a past quote from Systrom to press him on why the founders actually decided to leave Facebook. Systrom clarifies that after scaling from 30 million to over a billion users, stepping down was comparable to completing an exhausting Ironman triathlon.8:27–11:23 · Guest teaching 3/10 Tech Reckoning and Social Responsibility at Global Scale Raz cites a Wired article comparing social platforms to nightclubs where founders leave before the party dies. Krieger and Systrom reject that narrative, explaining that the broader tech reckoning actually created guilt and motivated them to stay longer to champion platform kindness.11:23–14:39 · Guest teaching 4/10 Mitigating Harassment and Engineering Platform Safety Tools When Raz asks if social media is currently a force for kindness, Systrom frankly answers no, while outlining specific technical efforts like machine-learned anti-bullying filters. Krieger educates on how moderation tools had to evolve from simple block buttons to complex ML clusters as user scale exploded.14:40–18:20 · Guest teaching 2/10 Unwiring Corporate Habits and Envisioning Future Ventures Raz asks what the founders plan to tackle next given their complete financial freedom. Both explain the process of unlearning rigid corporate planning matrices in order to rediscover organic curiosity and early-stage experimentation.18:20–21:24 · Guest teaching 1/10 Partnership, Trust, and Complementary Leadership Dynamics Raz explores why Systrom and Krieger's partnership remained intact when so many startup co-founder relationships fracture. Both founders share stories highlighting their complementary personality profiles and deep operational trust.0:03–3:59 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Public Radio Station Support and Contribution Appeal Guy Raz opens the episode with a public radio funding pitch before introducing the live summit session and asking Kevin and Mike how it felt to abruptly step away from Instagram. The co-founders reflect warmly on losing their organizational leverage and learning to be beginners again.3:59–6:08 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Founder Identity, Legacy, and Life After Stepping Away Raz connects Instagram's founding history to the psychological struggle founders face when parting with companies they created. Mike Krieger explains how he decoupled his personal identity from the CTO title and realized his co-founder legacy remains permanent.6:08–8:26 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Decision to Leave Facebook and the Endurance of Scaling Raz uses a past quote from Systrom to press him on why the founders actually decided to leave Facebook. Systrom clarifies that after scaling from 30 million to over a billion users, stepping down was comparable to completing an exhausting Ironman triathlon.8:27–11:23 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Tech Reckoning and Social Responsibility at Global Scale Raz cites a Wired article comparing social platforms to nightclubs where founders leave before the party dies. Krieger and Systrom reject that narrative, explaining that the broader tech reckoning actually created guilt and motivated them to stay longer to champion platform kindness.11:23–14:39 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Mitigating Harassment and Engineering Platform Safety Tools When Raz asks if social media is currently a force for kindness, Systrom frankly answers no, while outlining specific technical efforts like machine-learned anti-bullying filters. Krieger educates on how moderation tools had to evolve from simple block buttons to complex ML clusters as user scale exploded.14:40–18:20 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Unwiring Corporate Habits and Envisioning Future Ventures Raz asks what the founders plan to tackle next given their complete financial freedom. Both explain the process of unlearning rigid corporate planning matrices in order to rediscover organic curiosity and early-stage experimentation.18:20–21:24 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Partnership, Trust, and Complementary Leadership Dynamics Raz explores why Systrom and Krieger's partnership remained intact when so many startup co-founder relationships fracture. Both founders share stories highlighting their complementary personality profiles and deep operational trust.0:03–3:59 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Public Radio Station Support and Contribution Appeal Guy Raz opens the episode with a public radio funding pitch before introducing the live summit session and asking Kevin and Mike how it felt to abruptly step away from Instagram. The co-founders reflect warmly on losing their organizational leverage and learning to be beginners again.3:59–6:08 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Founder Identity, Legacy, and Life After Stepping Away Raz connects Instagram's founding history to the psychological struggle founders face when parting with companies they created. Mike Krieger explains how he decoupled his personal identity from the CTO title and realized his co-founder legacy remains permanent.6:08–8:26 · Guy pushing back 2/10 The Decision to Leave Facebook and the Endurance of Scaling Raz uses a past quote from Systrom to press him on why the founders actually decided to leave Facebook. Systrom clarifies that after scaling from 30 million to over a billion users, stepping down was comparable to completing an exhausting Ironman triathlon.8:27–11:23 · Guy pushing back 2/10 Tech Reckoning and Social Responsibility at Global Scale Raz cites a Wired article comparing social platforms to nightclubs where founders leave before the party dies. Krieger and Systrom reject that narrative, explaining that the broader tech reckoning actually created guilt and motivated them to stay longer to champion platform kindness.11:23–14:39 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Mitigating Harassment and Engineering Platform Safety Tools When Raz asks if social media is currently a force for kindness, Systrom frankly answers no, while outlining specific technical efforts like machine-learned anti-bullying filters. Krieger educates on how moderation tools had to evolve from simple block buttons to complex ML clusters as user scale exploded.14:40–18:20 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Unwiring Corporate Habits and Envisioning Future Ventures Raz asks what the founders plan to tackle next given their complete financial freedom. Both explain the process of unlearning rigid corporate planning matrices in order to rediscover organic curiosity and early-stage experimentation.18:20–21:24 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Partnership, Trust, and Complementary Leadership Dynamics Raz explores why Systrom and Krieger's partnership remained intact when so many startup co-founder relationships fracture. Both founders share stories highlighting their complementary personality profiles and deep operational trust.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 52.9% · guest 47.1%0:00 · Guy 52.9% · guest 47.1%3:00 · Guy 26.8% · guest 73.2%3:00 · Guy 26.8% · guest 73.2%6:00 · Guy 24.2% · guest 75.8%6:00 · Guy 24.2% · guest 75.8%9:00 · Guy 5.4% · guest 94.6%9:00 · Guy 5.4% · guest 94.6%12:00 · Guy 12.3% · guest 87.7%12:00 · Guy 12.3% · guest 87.7%15:00 · Guy 21.9% · guest 78.1%15:00 · Guy 21.9% · guest 78.1%18:00 · Guy 10.7% · guest 89.3%18:00 · Guy 10.7% · guest 89.3%21:00 · Guy 65.7% · guest 34.3%21:00 · Guy 65.7% · guest 34.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 9:01 Krieger rejects the Wired nightclub narrative

Mike Krieger directly pushes back against the framing of a Wired quote introduced by Raz, arguing that platform toxicity caused guilt rather than prompting an opportunistic exit.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 6:08 Raz challenges Systrom with his own departure quote

Guy Raz quotes Kevin Systrom stating people do not leave jobs when everything is awesome to directly probe the underlying tension behind their Facebook exit.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 11:39 Systrom on the limits of platform kindness and anti-bullying engineering

Systrom answers Raz's broad question with a blunt denial before breaking down the engineering reality of training machine learning models to detect harassment at scale.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 8:27 Raz cites Wired analysis of social media life cycles

Guy Raz demonstrates journalistic preparation by quoting an insightful industry critique to challenge the co-founders on whether they intentionally timed their exit.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Public Radio Station Support and Contribution Appeal 1100 Guy Raz opens the episode with a public radio funding pitch before introducing the live summit session and asking Kevin and Mike how it felt to abruptly step away from Instagram. The co-founders reflect warmly on losing their organizational leverage and learning to be beginners again.
Founder Identity, Legacy, and Life After Stepping Away 2100 Raz connects Instagram's founding history to the psychological struggle founders face when parting with companies they created. Mike Krieger explains how he decoupled his personal identity from the CTO title and realized his co-founder legacy remains permanent.
The Decision to Leave Facebook and the Endurance of Scaling 2212 Raz uses a past quote from Systrom to press him on why the founders actually decided to leave Facebook. Systrom clarifies that after scaling from 30 million to over a billion users, stepping down was comparable to completing an exhausting Ironman triathlon.
Tech Reckoning and Social Responsibility at Global Scale 2322 Raz cites a Wired article comparing social platforms to nightclubs where founders leave before the party dies. Krieger and Systrom reject that narrative, explaining that the broader tech reckoning actually created guilt and motivated them to stay longer to champion platform kindness.
Mitigating Harassment and Engineering Platform Safety Tools 1411 When Raz asks if social media is currently a force for kindness, Systrom frankly answers no, while outlining specific technical efforts like machine-learned anti-bullying filters. Krieger educates on how moderation tools had to evolve from simple block buttons to complex ML clusters as user scale exploded.
Unwiring Corporate Habits and Envisioning Future Ventures 1200 Raz asks what the founders plan to tackle next given their complete financial freedom. Both explain the process of unlearning rigid corporate planning matrices in order to rediscover organic curiosity and early-stage experimentation.
Partnership, Trust, and Complementary Leadership Dynamics 1100 Raz explores why Systrom and Krieger's partnership remained intact when so many startup co-founder relationships fracture. Both founders share stories highlighting their complementary personality profiles and deep operational trust.

Statements from this episode (7)

Disclosure
Krieger recommitted to Instagram annually by assessing learning and impact
“I used to tell the team very openly, like every year, you know, I would sit down and like sort of recommit to Instagram and say like, am I still learning? Is this still exciting? I still feel like I can have impact. Or is it time for the next chapter?”
Mike Krieger Dec 19, 2019 ▶ 4:48
Assertion Supported
Instagram grew from 40M users at acquisition to over 1B
“You know, we sold it and it was how many million users? Maybe 30 or forty million users. And we got it to over a billion.”
Kevin Systrom Dec 19, 2019 ▶ 7:00
Disclosure
Systrom left Facebook due to exhaustion and desire for new projects
“That's why I think we ended up leaving, because you want a little break and recovery time, and then my personality is such that I'm excited about doing something new. Like, I, I'm just like, I'm always on to some new idea, And I don't know, it probably won't b…”
Kevin Systrom Dec 19, 2019 ▶ 7:59
Disclosure
Krieger felt guilty leaving Instagram during the platform's public backlash
“I saw it less like, you know, the tide is changing, therefore it's time for us to leave, and in fact, it was like the other side, like, ugh, like, maybe, not to sound conceited, but like, maybe this is when we could be most needed and that was definitely like …”
Mike Krieger Dec 19, 2019 ▶ 9:29
Opinion
Systrom admits social media is not a force for kindness
“Is social media in general a force for kindness? No.”
Kevin Systrom Dec 19, 2019 ▶ 11:39
Assertion Supported
Instagram launched without a block feature but built one within days
“Like, we didn't launch with a block feature, because we didn't need it at the beginning, or didn't think we needed it, and they're like, I don't want this guy on my Instagram, and we're like, oh yeah, that makes sense, and I think we had that out in like two o…”
Mike Krieger Dec 19, 2019 ▶ 13:23
Assertion Supported
Instagram grew from 13 employees at acquisition to over 1,000
“When you're inside of a large company that has grown from, you know, 13 people at the acquisition to, you know, we were probably over a thousand towards the end, you get wired in a certain way to think a certain way and talk a certain way and that unwiring tak…”
Kevin Systrom Dec 19, 2019 ▶ 17:07
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