Nov 9, 2023 · 42m · how-i-built-this
When a robot cooks your lunch with Steve Ells of Chipotle and Kernel
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Chipotle founder Steve Ells joins Guy Raz to discuss his career journey and the launch of Kernel, an innovative plant-forward restaurant chain that utilizes robotics, centralized commissary prep, and an equitable labor model to revolutionize fast-casual dining.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 35.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 2.5 Guest teaching 2.1 Guest disagreement 1.1 Guy pushing back 1.5
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 27:16 Rebuttal on general food applicability
Ells briskly rejects Raz's broad claim that Kernel's automated platform could be applied to any food, bluntly stating it cannot make spaghetti bolognese.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 33:23 Challenging the absence of human warmthRaz directly challenges Ells on whether an automated restaurant without human-facing employees can ever deliver real hospitality and warmth.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 19:58 Fast casual vs fast food operational modelElls explains why centralized fresh prep delivered hourly is fundamentally superior to traditional frozen fast food distribution like McDonald's.
Guy holds their own ▶ 11:07 Meat consumption reality checkRaz marshals market counterexamples like perpetual lines at In-N-Out to test Ells' commercial thesis for a plant-based fast casual chain.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Leaving Chipotle and the Food Safety Crisis | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 | Guy Raz demonstrates contextual knowledge of Chipotle's 2017 timeline and leadership transition to Brian Niccol. Steve Ells is open, reflective, and non-combative as he describes stepping down. | |
| Pandemic Reflections and the Climate Inspiration | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Guy asks open-ended questions about Ells' pandemic reflections. Ells explains the thesis behind Kernel inspired by Bill Gates' climate book and greenhouse gas data. | |
| Crafting Kernel's Plant-Based Culinary Concept | 3 | 3 | 2 | 3 | Raz pushes back gently by asking why a plant-based concept will appeal at scale when lines at In-N-Out remain packed. Ells clarifies his menu philosophy and target flexitarian demographic. | |
| Sponsor Break with Lumi and Mando Deodorant | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Sponsor break and listener voicemail segment with zero host-guest tension or expertise exchanges. | |
| The Hub-and-Spoke Operational Architecture | 2 | 3 | 1 | 0 | Raz invites Ells to explain Kernel's operating structure. Ells details the bicycle-delivered hub-and-spoke central prep kitchen and app-driven fulfillment workflow. | |
| Eliminating Kitchen Waste and Physical Footprint | 3 | 4 | 2 | 4 | Raz challenges why Kernel needs a local hub-and-spoke model rather than shipping frozen food like McDonald's. Ells schools him on how fresh prep differentiates fast casual from legacy fast food. | |
| Robotic Hardware, Custom Engineering, and Scaling Plans | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Raz asks about robotic equipment customization. Ells explains the combination of off-the-shelf industrial KUKA arms with custom-engineered pans and programming. | |
| Startup Financing and Tech Licensing Opportunities | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | Raz uses an espresso machine analogy to explore unit economics and startup capital. Ells corrects the assumption that individual store build-outs are capital intensive. | |
| Transforming Fast-Food Labor and Employee Equity | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Raz asks if Kernel addresses broken restaurant labor dynamics. Ells outlines high industry turnover and explains Kernel's model of smaller teams with higher compensation and equity. | |
| Digital Hospitality and Human Connection | 3 | 3 | 2 | 4 | Raz pushes on the loss of face-to-face warmth compared to brands like Chick-fil-A. Ells acknowledges the point but argues the current high-turnover model is fundamentally unsustainable. | |
| Leadership Evolution and Expansion Roadmaps | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Raz asks about leadership growth and expansion milestones. Ells reflects collaboratively on team building and measured regional rollout. | |
| Motivations for Reinventing the Restaurant Industry | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | Raz asks what continues to motivate Ells given his existing wealth and success. Ells shares his intrinsic drive for culinary service and systemic industry disruption. |
Statements from this episode (15)
Ells: 25 to 30% of Greenhouse Emissions Come From Food
“And I come to understand that, you know, 25 or 30% or so of the greenhouse gases that we emit come from what we eat, and the vast majority of that comes from animal sources.”
Chipotle Allowed Steve Ells to Launch Plant-Based Chain Despite Non-Compete
“No, I was speaking with Chipotle. Of course I have a non-compete in, in place, but I asked them, I said, well, what do you think if I started a plant-based restaurant, have nothing to do with Chipotle or the fast casual format that Certainly something complete…”
Ells: Founder of plant-based chain Kernel still eats meat and fish
“So Guy, I'm not I don't adhere to a plant-based diet. I still eat meat. I still eat fish. But I've noticed over the years I eat less and less meat.”
Ells: Kernel will centralize food prep and deliver hourly via bicycle
“So we do all of our preparation, all of the food prep in a central kitchen, and that will service a couple of handfuls of restaurants within a, Five to 10 minute bicycle ride. And we'll put this prepped food into totes and load the totes onto a wagon and pull …”
Ells: Kernel needs only three peak-period workers versus twelve at typical restaurants
“And so where a typical fast casual restaurant might have, you know, a dozen folks at peak period Colonel would have three.”
Ells: Kernel operates out of 800 square feet with lower build-out costs
“We can operate out of 800 square feet, where a typical fast casual might be 2500 square feet, and our build-out cost is a lot less.”
Ells: Kernel requires no grease hoods, fire suppression, or gas lines
“A typical fast casual restaurant will have a grease hood, fire suppression systems, gas lines, grease traps, you know, all of these sort of infrastructure pieces. We don't need any of that.”
Ells: Kernel uses off-the-shelf KUKA robot arms with custom programming
“We bought an off-the-shelf KUKA robot. It's a robot that's typically used on assembly lines. They work 24 seven for years. They're very reliable. Of course, we custom program that. We use an impingement oven that we took and modified.”
Steve Ells: Kernel raised $36M Series A to open 15 restaurants
“I just completed my series a round and raised thirty six million. And so, so, you know, that'll take us through the next couple of years and that will be a lot to open up 15 restaurants.”
Steve Ells: Fast-food industry turnover is typically around 165%
“One of the problems is that we see extraordinarily high turnover in the industry. I think it's something like a 165% is, is typical.”
Steve Ells: Kernel will offer restaurant workers stock options and full benefits
“And since we only have three people we'll be able to afford those higher wages. Plus I think our Purpose is bigger than our product. Being able to address global warming, being able to address some of the inequality with pay for folks in, in, in the world of f…”
Ells: Kernel will rely on human teams for at least the next decade
“There will always be a place, you know, for our teams to operate the kernel model for the foreseeable future, and I'm talking about the next decade at least, right?”
Ells: Fast food wages stay low because restaurant margins cannot afford raises
“I think you see depressed wages because margins are so tight, right? It's, and I think these operators would love to pay their folks more, but the model just can't afford to do it.”