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Aug 11, 2025 · 1h 4m · how-i-built-this

Crumbl: Jason McGowan

Jason McGowan · 36m spoken Guy Raz · 21m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of How I Built This, host Guy Raz speaks with Crumbl co-founder Jason McGowan about transforming a small Utah cookie shop into a billion-dollar franchise empire using tech startup principles, A/B testing, and viral social media marketing.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 37.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 5.1 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 0.9 Guy pushing back 2.4
05100:0015:0030:0045:001:00:004:03–10:42 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Jason McGowan's Early Life, LDS Mission, and Tech Beginnings Guy Raz demonstrates detailed background research regarding Utah demographics and distinguishes Paul Allen of Ancestry from Microsoft's co-founder. Jason shares how self-taught web development and user psychology paved his way into early social tech.10:43–14:59 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Pick.com, Hang Time, and Meeting Sawyer Hemsley Guy tracks Jason's moves between California and Utah, probing how he met his future co-founder Sawyer Hemsley. Jason explains how Sawyer's ethical response to a failed clothing startup earned his complete trust.15:00–21:27 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 The Inception of Crumbl and A/B Testing the Recipe Guy contextualizes the Utah baking landscape and compares the early vision to Insomnia Cookies. Jason details their tech-style A/B testing approach, taking prototype cookies to gas stations and polling Twitter.21:30–30:35 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: The Impending Launch Guy challenges the rationality of engineering a complex hot-delivery network for a town of only 50,000 residents. Jason acknowledges the premise sounded crazy but explains it was a sandbox for refining customer delight.30:37–39:49 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Pink Boxes, Delivery Logistics, and Transition to Franchising Guy examines the financial sustainability of warm deliveries and the pivot toward franchising. Jason recounts how a major potential franchisee demanded opening on Sundays, leading him to refuse compromising company core values.39:51–57:04 · Guy as informed peer 6/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: Scaling and Public Reception Guy presses Jason on franchisee friction over poor-performing weekly drop flavors and questions unappealing flavor experiments like strawberry limeade with Nerds. Jason defends polarizing flavors as viral conversation drivers.57:05–1:03:11 · Guy as informed peer 6/10 Legal Battles, Milestone Growth, and Future Innovation Guy pushes on long-term brand durability by drawing a comparison to Mrs. Fields' historic boom and fade. Jason reflects on the distraction of legal trademark battles and outlines Crumbl's menu diversification into pies and cakes.4:03–10:42 · Guest teaching 3/10 Jason McGowan's Early Life, LDS Mission, and Tech Beginnings Guy Raz demonstrates detailed background research regarding Utah demographics and distinguishes Paul Allen of Ancestry from Microsoft's co-founder. Jason shares how self-taught web development and user psychology paved his way into early social tech.10:43–14:59 · Guest teaching 2/10 Pick.com, Hang Time, and Meeting Sawyer Hemsley Guy tracks Jason's moves between California and Utah, probing how he met his future co-founder Sawyer Hemsley. Jason explains how Sawyer's ethical response to a failed clothing startup earned his complete trust.15:00–21:27 · Guest teaching 3/10 The Inception of Crumbl and A/B Testing the Recipe Guy contextualizes the Utah baking landscape and compares the early vision to Insomnia Cookies. Jason details their tech-style A/B testing approach, taking prototype cookies to gas stations and polling Twitter.21:30–30:35 · Guest teaching 3/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: The Impending Launch Guy challenges the rationality of engineering a complex hot-delivery network for a town of only 50,000 residents. Jason acknowledges the premise sounded crazy but explains it was a sandbox for refining customer delight.30:37–39:49 · Guest teaching 3/10 Pink Boxes, Delivery Logistics, and Transition to Franchising Guy examines the financial sustainability of warm deliveries and the pivot toward franchising. Jason recounts how a major potential franchisee demanded opening on Sundays, leading him to refuse compromising company core values.39:51–57:04 · Guest teaching 4/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: Scaling and Public Reception Guy presses Jason on franchisee friction over poor-performing weekly drop flavors and questions unappealing flavor experiments like strawberry limeade with Nerds. Jason defends polarizing flavors as viral conversation drivers.57:05–1:03:11 · Guest teaching 3/10 Legal Battles, Milestone Growth, and Future Innovation Guy pushes on long-term brand durability by drawing a comparison to Mrs. Fields' historic boom and fade. Jason reflects on the distraction of legal trademark battles and outlines Crumbl's menu diversification into pies and cakes.4:03–10:42 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Jason McGowan's Early Life, LDS Mission, and Tech Beginnings Guy Raz demonstrates detailed background research regarding Utah demographics and distinguishes Paul Allen of Ancestry from Microsoft's co-founder. Jason shares how self-taught web development and user psychology paved his way into early social tech.10:43–14:59 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Pick.com, Hang Time, and Meeting Sawyer Hemsley Guy tracks Jason's moves between California and Utah, probing how he met his future co-founder Sawyer Hemsley. Jason explains how Sawyer's ethical response to a failed clothing startup earned his complete trust.15:00–21:27 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Inception of Crumbl and A/B Testing the Recipe Guy contextualizes the Utah baking landscape and compares the early vision to Insomnia Cookies. Jason details their tech-style A/B testing approach, taking prototype cookies to gas stations and polling Twitter.21:30–30:35 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: The Impending Launch Guy challenges the rationality of engineering a complex hot-delivery network for a town of only 50,000 residents. Jason acknowledges the premise sounded crazy but explains it was a sandbox for refining customer delight.30:37–39:49 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Pink Boxes, Delivery Logistics, and Transition to Franchising Guy examines the financial sustainability of warm deliveries and the pivot toward franchising. Jason recounts how a major potential franchisee demanded opening on Sundays, leading him to refuse compromising company core values.39:51–57:04 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: Scaling and Public Reception Guy presses Jason on franchisee friction over poor-performing weekly drop flavors and questions unappealing flavor experiments like strawberry limeade with Nerds. Jason defends polarizing flavors as viral conversation drivers.57:05–1:03:11 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Legal Battles, Milestone Growth, and Future Innovation Guy pushes on long-term brand durability by drawing a comparison to Mrs. Fields' historic boom and fade. Jason reflects on the distraction of legal trademark battles and outlines Crumbl's menu diversification into pies and cakes.4:03–10:42 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Jason McGowan's Early Life, LDS Mission, and Tech Beginnings Guy Raz demonstrates detailed background research regarding Utah demographics and distinguishes Paul Allen of Ancestry from Microsoft's co-founder. Jason shares how self-taught web development and user psychology paved his way into early social tech.10:43–14:59 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Pick.com, Hang Time, and Meeting Sawyer Hemsley Guy tracks Jason's moves between California and Utah, probing how he met his future co-founder Sawyer Hemsley. Jason explains how Sawyer's ethical response to a failed clothing startup earned his complete trust.15:00–21:27 · Guy pushing back 2/10 The Inception of Crumbl and A/B Testing the Recipe Guy contextualizes the Utah baking landscape and compares the early vision to Insomnia Cookies. Jason details their tech-style A/B testing approach, taking prototype cookies to gas stations and polling Twitter.21:30–30:35 · Guy pushing back 3/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: The Impending Launch Guy challenges the rationality of engineering a complex hot-delivery network for a town of only 50,000 residents. Jason acknowledges the premise sounded crazy but explains it was a sandbox for refining customer delight.30:37–39:49 · Guy pushing back 3/10 Pink Boxes, Delivery Logistics, and Transition to Franchising Guy examines the financial sustainability of warm deliveries and the pivot toward franchising. Jason recounts how a major potential franchisee demanded opening on Sundays, leading him to refuse compromising company core values.39:51–57:04 · Guy pushing back 3/10 Mid-Episode Intermission: Scaling and Public Reception Guy presses Jason on franchisee friction over poor-performing weekly drop flavors and questions unappealing flavor experiments like strawberry limeade with Nerds. Jason defends polarizing flavors as viral conversation drivers.57:05–1:03:11 · Guy pushing back 4/10 Legal Battles, Milestone Growth, and Future Innovation Guy pushes on long-term brand durability by drawing a comparison to Mrs. Fields' historic boom and fade. Jason reflects on the distraction of legal trademark battles and outlines Crumbl's menu diversification into pies and cakes.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 81% · guest 19%0:00 · Guy 81% · guest 19%3:00 · Guy 54.7% · guest 45.3%3:00 · Guy 54.7% · guest 45.3%6:00 · Guy 14.2% · guest 85.8%6:00 · Guy 14.2% · guest 85.8%9:00 · Guy 20.6% · guest 79.4%9:00 · Guy 20.6% · guest 79.4%12:00 · Guy 35.4% · guest 64.6%12:00 · Guy 35.4% · guest 64.6%15:00 · Guy 38.8% · guest 61.2%15:00 · Guy 38.8% · guest 61.2%18:00 · Guy 32.6% · guest 67.4%18:00 · Guy 32.6% · guest 67.4%21:00 · Guy 39.9% · guest 60.1%21:00 · Guy 39.9% · guest 60.1%24:00 · Guy 49.6% · guest 50.4%24:00 · Guy 49.6% · guest 50.4%27:00 · Guy 11.2% · guest 88.8%27:00 · Guy 11.2% · guest 88.8%30:00 · Guy 26.5% · guest 73.5%30:00 · Guy 26.5% · guest 73.5%33:00 · Guy 10.5% · guest 89.5%33:00 · Guy 10.5% · guest 89.5%36:00 · Guy 31.2% · guest 68.8%36:00 · Guy 31.2% · guest 68.8%39:00 · Guy 26% · guest 74%39:00 · Guy 26% · guest 74%42:00 · Guy 53.6% · guest 46.4%42:00 · Guy 53.6% · guest 46.4%45:00 · Guy 34.5% · guest 65.5%45:00 · Guy 34.5% · guest 65.5%48:00 · Guy 35.1% · guest 64.9%48:00 · Guy 35.1% · guest 64.9%51:00 · Guy 19.7% · guest 80.3%51:00 · Guy 19.7% · guest 80.3%54:00 · Guy 58.8% · guest 41.2%54:00 · Guy 58.8% · guest 41.2%57:00 · Guy 50.3% · guest 49.7%57:00 · Guy 50.3% · guest 49.7%1:00:00 · Guy 40.2% · guest 59.8%1:00:00 · Guy 40.2% · guest 59.8%1:03:00 · Guy 85% · guest 15%1:03:00 · Guy 85% · guest 15%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 56:18 Jason challenges Guy on trying strange cookie flavors

When Guy expresses disgust at flavor concepts like strawberry limeade with Nerds candies, Jason immediately flips the script to challenge Guy on whether he has actually tasted it.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 59:58 Guy challenges Crumbl's staying power using Mrs. Fields

Guy refuses to accept simple growth metrics, pressing Jason on whether Crumbl risks suffering the same fade into obscurity that befell previous mall-era cookie giants.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 20:22 Jason details commercial baking nuances versus home ovens

Jason explains the technical physics of commercial baking—including pan slamming, butter whipping, and rotational heat—showing how home recipe perfection did not translate to industrial equipment.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 24:59 Guy points out the absurdity of Logan delivery logistics

Guy brings market data into focus, pressing Jason on why building an internal driver fleet and thermal logistics in a 50,000-person college town made sense on paper.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Jason McGowan's Early Life, LDS Mission, and Tech Beginnings 5301 Guy Raz demonstrates detailed background research regarding Utah demographics and distinguishes Paul Allen of Ancestry from Microsoft's co-founder. Jason shares how self-taught web development and user psychology paved his way into early social tech.
Pick.com, Hang Time, and Meeting Sawyer Hemsley 4201 Guy tracks Jason's moves between California and Utah, probing how he met his future co-founder Sawyer Hemsley. Jason explains how Sawyer's ethical response to a failed clothing startup earned his complete trust.
The Inception of Crumbl and A/B Testing the Recipe 5312 Guy contextualizes the Utah baking landscape and compares the early vision to Insomnia Cookies. Jason details their tech-style A/B testing approach, taking prototype cookies to gas stations and polling Twitter.
Mid-Episode Intermission: The Impending Launch 5313 Guy challenges the rationality of engineering a complex hot-delivery network for a town of only 50,000 residents. Jason acknowledges the premise sounded crazy but explains it was a sandbox for refining customer delight.
Pink Boxes, Delivery Logistics, and Transition to Franchising 5313 Guy examines the financial sustainability of warm deliveries and the pivot toward franchising. Jason recounts how a major potential franchisee demanded opening on Sundays, leading him to refuse compromising company core values.
Mid-Episode Intermission: Scaling and Public Reception 6423 Guy presses Jason on franchisee friction over poor-performing weekly drop flavors and questions unappealing flavor experiments like strawberry limeade with Nerds. Jason defends polarizing flavors as viral conversation drivers.
Legal Battles, Milestone Growth, and Future Innovation 6314 Guy pushes on long-term brand durability by drawing a comparison to Mrs. Fields' historic boom and fade. Jason reflects on the distraction of legal trademark battles and outlines Crumbl's menu diversification into pies and cakes.

Statements from this episode (11)

Assertion Not publicly verifiable
Crumbl chose milk chocolate chips over semi-sweet based on a Twitter poll
“And so we put a survey out on Twitter and the survey results came back and it was 70% milk chocolate chip, 30% semi-sweet. And that's how we decided that we were going to go with milk chocolate chips instead of semi-sweet.”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 19:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
McGowan: Crumbl leased space and bought equipment before finalizing recipe
“We rented out the building, we got the commercial equipment, we did all that, and we still didn't even know what the recipe was.”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 21:06
Disclosure
Crumbl built its first storefront without knowing they needed municipal permits
“Even at the time, I didn't even, this, I didn't even know that you were supposed to get, like, permits and all those kinds of things to do a lot of these things. So we were doing some of these things without permits”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 27:03
Insight
Crumbl slashed delivery costs by dispatching drivers with surplus warm cookies
“Well, what we learned we could do was, is we wouldn't send out drivers with the exact order, because remember, there's only one flavor. We would send them out with way more cookies than they already had current orders for. And so as a new order would pop up, i…”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 32:46
Disclosure
Crumbl closes all locations on Sundays to prioritize employee family time
“We want to be able to give bakers time off. We want them to be able to spend time with their friends and families. And this is just core to who we are. It's spending time with family. And if people want to worship on Sundays or they want to do other things on …”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 37:49
Assertion Not checkable as stated
McGowan: Crumbl employs over 30 people dedicated to customer replies
“Even today we have over 30 people that are just dedicated to responding to people.”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 46:36
Insight
McGowan: Businesses should focus on fans because critics do not pay
“Our critics don't pay for our business. Our fans do.”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 48:09
Assertion Supported
McGowan: Crumbl has more TikTok followers than Starbucks and Nike combined
“Starbucks and Nucky combined, I think we have more than both of those combined, yeah.”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 52:07
Disclosure
Crumbl formed a franchisee council to help select weekly cookie flavors
“One thing that we've done recently is we've brought our franchise, we bring a council together of franchisees, so We have several franchisees who've run extremely well, you know, well-run stores, and they come together and they help us pick the flavors togeth…”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 55:49
Insight
McGowan regrets suing copycat competitors, saying it distracted from Crumbl's focus
“Looking back on it, I think, I don't think it was worth the time and the energy. Our whole career has been built on not focusing on competitors, and then all of a sudden this happened, and it caused us to lose focus for a little bit, to be honest, too. So, I w…”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 58:57
Disclosure
McGowan: Crumbl plans to grow by approximately 100 units annually
“We still plan on growing a hundred units or so a year, but we want to be a little bit more strategic in how we do it and where we place them and all those kinds of things.”
Jason McGowan Aug 11, 2025 ▶ 1:01:57
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