lithium-ion

“And I think, you know, so as an investor in the space, we always try to disprove this hypothesis, but I think the null hypothesis has to be lithium ion wins. And, you know, then you have to see if you can come up with ways that that's not the case, but you hav…”

“And unfortunately, at least from what I've seen, round trip efficiency kind of looks like flow battery round trip efficiency. And, you know, where the crossover with lithium ion costs, you know, in that eight to 10 hour range, Kind of looks similar too.”

“And so I always kind of cringe when I hear people say things like lithium mine can't do long duration or can't do durations more than four hours. Everyone who has a cell phone knows That lithium ion can do 24 hours, because we've all forgotten to plug one in f…”

“We are inherently going to be putting huge amounts of lithium ion on the grid in the form of, you know, EVs. And so I think at least for demand response, there's something there, right? There's some offset that, you know, to other storage that would be needed,…”

“And it's really not that they cost so much, right? It's that you don't get value out of the 23rd hour of storage that you have installed if you don't use it every day.”

“And usually you get something that looks like lithium ion cost when you're getting around eight to 10 hours.”

“And I think this is creating an opening For a bunch of alternative chemistries, flow batteries, sodium batteries, zinc-based batteries, metal air batteries, a bunch of other technologies that, that do look really interesting on paper and have specs that lithiu…”

“The problem with lithium ion is that The cost scales pretty directly with the duration. So if you want four hours of energy storage, it's great. But if you want 40 hours of energy storage, it's very expensive.”

“If you want to move energy from July to January, don't use something that self-discharges over time. Don't use lithium-ion.”

“I think we're going to end up with sort of three tranches of storage in the grid, which are going to be filled by at least three different technology categories. The first is those short duration, you know, peak of the peak applications that lithium ion is, is…”

“Form is on track to achieve a total installed cost. We're not talking about the cost of the materials here, but a total installed cost for a approximately a hundred hour battery system, which is basically a four day battery system that is in the ballpark of a …”

“It's actually a remarkably efficient sort of power-to-power energy storage technology. You can get, you know, 80 to 90% AC to AC efficiency levels”

“Right now, there aren't enough hours that have a long enough spread where it makes sense to have a hundred hour bar doing that. It does make sense for a four hour or two hour battery or even a one hour battery, frankly in ERCOT.”

“One quick point of reference, you know, lithium ion active materials. So you pull the active materials out of the ground, you put them on the table, it's maybe 30, 35 dollars a kilowatt hour, unprocessed, right? Not turned into a cell at all. For us, it's less…”

“In the case of lithium ion, Let's say that's roughly a hundred dollars a kilowatt hour. You're adding a hundred dollars for every hour you want to discharge. And the industry normalizes around dollar per kilowatt in terms of comparative resources. So everythin…”

“Displacing lithium ion is going to be really hard. I mean, the grid markets are sort of the tail on the dog of the automotive markets right now driving the production of lithium ion at scale. And so, so the industry that we're in, the electric industry gets to…”

“To make renewables truly capacity, you generally need multiple types of storage. You need some storage that's gonna, you know, do your daily peak shaving type of thing, your four-hour lithium ion, you know, workhorse of the grid type of thing. But then increas…”

“There were maybe 50 gigawatt hours of lithium ion produced that year.”

“It's kind of amazing now for over a decade, there's almost a continuous stream of companies I feel like I've seen across a wide range of different approaches to building a mousetrap to store energy that have always been in the 20 to 50% theoretically better th…”

“Where the substrate metal foil that the negative bread is attached to, usually in lithium ion, has to be copper. In sodium ion, it can be aluminum, and that's lighter, it's cheaper it has some other benefits that we can get into later, but apart from all of th…”

“If I model out the price floor, basically, Bill of materials only. Take out manufacturing costs. I can see a world in which we get to 35, I can see a world in which we can be at 35 today. 35 dollars per kilowatt hour.”

“Saying kind of a blanket statement that Sodium ion is safer than lithium ion. I can tell you that is objectively wrong, right?”

“Given the pace at which lithium ion chemistries have fallen in price, and the amount of manufacturing capacity that's been built around the world, if I look at Bloomberg NEF projections, sodium ion will make an impact, but such a sliver, even after 2030 years,…”

“Like, any kind of battery configuration with the same kind of duration, you're talking about more than 10 times the footprint, whether lithium ion or otherwise.”