The Exchanges

Q And what about China? Can you share a little bit about China's relationship with Venezuelan leadership and Maduro and when that became a more kind of intimate economic tie?

A Well, Venezuela turned to be China's main debtor with over 60, 60 billion dollars in debts that, you know, accounted for all kinds of different projects that were never built. And, and certainly China realized that Venezuela's, you know, natural endowments are unique. Absolutely unique. It was strategical. Um, nonetheless, uh, the, the degree of corruption in the system and in this system is so, so big that China stopped funding Maduro about seven years ago and simply is getting, you know, the oil to, to pay for the debts that are still, um, pending. Um, I, I, I believe China, you know, understands the, the, the strategic importance Venezuela has also for its geographic location. Um, but, but has been more prudent because of the degree of, of corruption that they have suffered from, from Maduro and, and the regime. But there's also the side of the, you know, the intelligence, uh, spionage, uh, and technology and satellites From China that have been installed in Venezuela. That's a very important dimension for Venezuela.

AI assessment note: “Venezuela turned to be China's main debtor with over 60, 60 billion dollars”

Q How many people did you recruit to this Legion for the ballot monitoring?

A It ended up being more than one million volunteers. Everyone with a specific task. David, we had no money. We could not print flyers or posters. You know how much was our publicity budget? Zero. We didn't pay for one ad. Nothing. When we went around the countries and we stayed in hotels, the regime would come the next day and close a hotel. If we went and stopped in the street to, to buy some food, then they will punish the, the, the restaurant or, or the snack place. I mean, they, they blocked streets. They, they got our people in prison, persecuted those that were in control of the electoral and organization departments. I mean, this was huge, but they turned this into an epic. And, and citizens decided that it was going to be their own epic, their own victory. So we train all these people with our diaspora. We, we, we had these apps, uh, designed and We knew, and this is a very important part, that we had to prove our victory. For the first time, we needed to prove the results. So we designed a system through which we would collect the original Tali sheets, we would scan them, and we will publish them in a digitized webpage, super robust, for the whole world to see. And in order to do this, imagine we are in a country where 60% of our territory doesn't have access to the internet or even cellular phones. So we needed to geo-optimize, you know, process, uh, centers to process…

AI assessment note: “It ended up being more than one million volunteers.”

Q I never thought I would be sitting on a podcast, but, uh, life takes us down strange paths. What were the conditions in the country when Chavez came to power? What sort of life were you living? What were you seeing in the country that enabled Chavez to come to power and what did he promise the people?

A Look, we had a period of, of, uh, democracy that brought Venezuela huge opportunities, you know, that, uh, widespread education and health. Unfortunately, Uh, we stopped short of a, a real free economy, but, um, the state control, not only of institutions, but as you mentioned, Wendy, all companies were, you know, owned, turned into the government, and, and terrible incentives started being created, and more and more people felt excluded from that You know, wealth that the society, the Venezuelan society was getting, or the country was getting, because it was all in hands of the state. So we've never known but the state-controlled economy. We've never always known or never seen anything but that kind of socialist procedures in place. When Chavez arrived, we had gone through a political You know, crisis and, and, and there were grown tensions and, and, you know, claims of corruption in the political system, the party system, and also the price of oil had, you know, declined. It was around eight dollars a barrel. So he came with a populist narrative offering, you know, everyone to be equal and, and to revenge against all those that were guilty of poverty in the, in the country. And, and, you know, he aligned with actors such as Fidel Castro in Cuba and other international interests to grab, you know, those huge resources Venezuela has. And of course, you know, super strategic geo…

AI assessment note: “he came with a populist narrative offering, you know, everyone to be equal”

Q for president. You won the primary with a resounding victory in October, 26, 23. Today, you're sitting in a basement. You're not in the office of the president. Can we walk through what happened? What was that campaign like? How did you reach the people given that you didn't have access to the state media? And then maybe share a little bit about that primary victory and what happened afterwards?

A Yeah. You know, we realized, as I said in, in January, 20, 23, that we need needed to get, you know, trust back in the Venezuelan people. Trust ourselves and trust each other. And, and the primary had this incredible opportunity of giving power to the people and not the political parties that used to decide, you know, which the candidates were. So we decided to go for a primary and a primary in which the regime would not get involved in, in Venezuela. In previous primaries process, the, the, the regime electoral, uh, uh, entity would organize the primaries, and we said this time, no way. We're going to do it organized by citizens. This was a huge challenge and a great risk. And we believe the regime totally underestimated us. They thought that perhaps, you know, 102 100,000 people might appear and vote and so on. And, and that's why they let it go, let it run. And when October 22nd, you know, it's two years ago, exactly. They came. I was a candidate, there were 10 candidates and I thought, well, it's a miracle that, that it's just this It's happening as we, as, as we're seeing it. At mid morning, around 10 or 11 in the morning, I start getting calls from all around the country saying, we run out of ballots. I said, what do you mean? I mean, it's only three hours of the process. What do you mean? We run out of ballots. So many people showed up, over three million Venezuelans, an…

AI assessment note: “So we decided to go for a primary and a primary in which the regime”

Q So were you doing Sumaté full time? Did that become your life's work at that point? And then how did you make the decision to run for the National Assembly, which was in 2011. Fast forward nine years after founding Sumaté.

A Sumaté was like an awakening for me and for many Venezuelans. We, we realized that we could not Rely our citizenship in political parties and that you cannot be complaining about politics if you're not willing to do your part. And that's why, you know, it came a day when I said, you know, you know, I, I, I know how politics are doing, how it works. I don't like it. So I cannot complain if I'm not willing to take my own steps. So I, I took this fellowship to, to, to a program in leadership at Yale University. And, you know, it was like seeing my life From above. And I made that huge decision that I was going, you know, go for it. I was, I was going to run for Congress. I had no political party. I had no experience. You know, everything was against me. Everybody told me you are crazy. You are never going to win. You are never going to get support. Nobody's going to support someone, you know, whose family has resources, who's a woman who are divorced. You are not a socialist. I mean, I have every single condition to fail. And I, I decided, you know, I, I felt it was my responsibility. I could not, you know, Get afraid of, and I had to trust my own, you know, feeling, and it was impressive. You know, volunteers started, you know, contacting me, and in a matter of months, with no money whatsoever, no organization, no media, nothing, I won. I won the primaries, and then I, for the, f…

AI assessment note: “I took this fellowship to... Yale University... And I made that huge decision”

Q Venezuela is a country of, I think, twenty-eight million people. By some estimates, eight million people have fled the country. Does that feel accurate to you? And can you provide some anecdotes of why people leave, where they go, and what it's like in the country that's causing this mass exodus of the population?

A Look, we aren't A nation of a little over thirty million. I mean, this is a country where you have no information whatsoever. Imagine living in a country where you know how many you are. You don't know what's the size of your debt or your GDP or, or inflation. Nothing. It's a black box. No, that's, that's, that's why it's also a challenge in terms of what's coming up. But, um, roughly Nine million people have left. It is, you know, around 30% of our population. Imagine if the 30% of the American people leave. What it would mean? No, it's devastating because we're seeing, you know, our young people, our children, doctors, engineers, scientists, nurses, teachers, and of course they go because the situation from an economic perspective is, is horrible. But mostly because you don't see a future in your country, because you feel there's no possibility to survive. So, Women that have left their young children back only to send something for them to eat. Children that have left their parents alone. I've met so many, so many grandparents that have not met their grandchildren yet. And they try and help me and ask me, please, please bring my grandchildren back. And we all know that the only possibility for that to happen is that we, you know, have a transition to democracy. And when that happens, David, You will see the day Maduro goes, hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans voluntarily co…

AI assessment note: “roughly Nine million people have left. It is, you know, around 30% of our population.”

Q Just to contextualize all of this, prior to his coming to power, the oil companies had been nationalized. So to your point, the government was really the economy, and he promised this sort of equality, And redistribution of value for all of the people of Venezuela. Is that what he promised? And the economy was really depressed because of the oil price being down.

A Yeah. And that he would take, you know, uh, resources from the rich, the companies, and he would distribute in, in, in poor quarters and, and in, in, in, in the most vulnerable, uh, uh, parts of the, of society. And at the end, We, we learned the hard way that effectively this kind of socialist approach does get everyone equal in absolute misery because there's nothing for free in life. I mean, you, you give away your choices, your decisions in supposedly to receive, but actually what you are, you are getting is into a slave, uh, situation in, in which the state, you know, decide. For you, and, and only if you behave accordingly, you will get what they had offered. So that's what we're seeing right now. Imagine this, David. The country that has the largest oil reserves in the world have been walking around those areas where that oil is actually beneath the ground, and you see children eating from garbage.

AI assessment note: “Yeah. And that he would take, you know, uh, resources from the rich”

Q also this embracing or tie up with the drug trade, the FARC, ELN in Colombia. What is the alignment? What was the reason that the Chavez regime and now the Maduro regime aligns with the drug cartels given the oil wealth, given the international diplomatic ties because of the oil trade? Why is there also a drug tie up and what is the motivation and the incentive and drive there?

A Well, the, the drug business is not new. Actually, it started before Chavez arrived, and many individuals in the military had ties to them, but they realized it could be even much more, uh, the margins are even larger than in oil, and the greed in these individuals, in this criminal structure is unlimited. It's infinite. So they not only went into drugs and drug trafficking, they went into gold smuggling, Arms swapping, even human trafficking. I mean, every single criminal network In the world has, has, you know, converged into Venezuela that has been turned into a safe heaven for, for the enemies of, of, of the West and, and the enemies of the United States. Imagine, I mean, Caracas is three hours away from Miami. So having, you know, a satellite of Russia, of Iran operating in the heart of the Americas, it's, it's something that, you know, this, this, Regimes around the world have always drawn off. Um, even terrorist groups such as Hezbollah, Hamas, uh, to which Chavez and Maduro have given, uh, thousands of Venezuelan's identities and passports to travel around freely around the world.

AI assessment note: “the margins are even larger than in oil, and the greed in these individuals”

Q you share about the Maduro transition? Maduro is, on paper, seemingly wouldn't have been the natural successor to Chavez. He started out as a bus driver and then he was a union leader. It's unclear from the outside what makes Maduro the, the selected successor to Chavez. What is it about him as a man, as a person, with his character that made him the successor to the Chavez regime?

A Well, Maduro was training in Cuba, so it was the Cubans who chose Maduro. It was a very easy option for them, totally loyal to the communist Castro regime. And Maduro has no, no, you know, no, nothing restricts him from exercising, you know, violence and, and, and, and force for his, uh, ideas. And he certainly doesn't have Chavez charisma, uh, nor, nor the degree of control in, in the other groups. So they were creating, you know, like a group of, of, of, uh, individuals that had the control of the, of, of the, the system, the strategy, the, the structure. That control the military, the financial enablers, uh, the, uh, criminal networks and the political sectors. And that's how he, he went over taking more and more control and turning Venezuela, as I mentioned before, into this safe heaven of criminal activities. And he himself turned into the head of these structures. When we heard about the Tren de Aragua, now about the Cartel de los Soles, the Cartel of the Sons. I mean, these are structures that we have been known for years. And we have tried the word to understand that this was not a conventional dictatorship anymore. This is a, you know, a very complex structure that, that, you know, produces Obscene amounts of resources, uh, not only for them, but also for very dangerous allies that come from very far, such as the ones I mentioned before and terrorist groups and so on. …

AI assessment note: “Maduro was training in Cuba, so it was the Cubans who chose Maduro.”

Q around the world was through the power of the oil reserves, but in such a way that it excluded the people from participation. It seemed to be very centralized to the government. Maybe you could share a little bit about how folks in the government, in the military under Chavez lived these incredible lives with wealth and luxury while the people were impoverished. Any anecdotes you could share on that?

A Yeah, sure. Look, this is a, this is, this is a result that's being the, you know, tried in Venezuela and elsewhere. You get into power through elections, and then from within, you start undermining every single Democratic institution. You go against the media, you control the media, and it's, and, and you can see this pattern in Venezuela. So how Chavez started, you know, pressing or, or buying space and publicity and then buying the whole media outlets and through censorship and, and through, and changing the laws in order for, to be very, very risky to speak out. And then it went also with the private sector in every single area of production. And of course it took the military as well. I mean, all those that were the most competent, uh, individuals that were put aside and only those that were absolutely loyal to the regime were offended. So this is something to destroy merit. And so that anybody, uh, realizes that if you want to be part, Of, of the system. If you want to work for the state or, or the academy or in the military. It has nothing to do with your competence or knowledge or talent, but you have to be absolutely loyal and, and low your head to the regime. And, and, and these progressively imagine all the resources that were coming in because you, you said something very important that some people do not realize. I mean, the, the, the barrel of oil was around 10 or…

AI assessment note: “used effectively to buy loyal and, and, and to lobby around the world”

Q Can you highlight the moments of the American presidencies, the American administrations, Obama, Biden, Donald Trump, and how they have supported the cause, and what's different today?

A I do have to say that, you know, we've had bipartisan support, and you see that in Congress, even yesterday, you know, and, and, and because they are, you know, sensible, Individuals in the Senate, in the House that understand that it's, you know, it's for humanitarian reasons because of its millions of lives at risk in Venezuela, but it's also for the national security of the United States. I think that's, you know, it's pretty well proven at this point. Um, but so far, um, there were only words, only statements and no actions. And, and when you face a criminal, Regime. I, you have to understand that, you know, the way to reach peace through freedom, and freedom requires strength, and that is moral strength, spiritual strength, and physical strength, and, and that's what finally the regime is facing at this point. So, you know, we're very, we are very, very grateful. To President Trump and his administration for, you know, the visionary and decisive way he has act, calling things vital names. It requires courage. Not a lot of people were willing to do that before. So now, look, we are prepared For an orderly transition. We know what we need to do in the first 100 hours, 100 days to take control of the institutions and our territory. Um, Venezuela has been destroyed in every possible way you see it in our economy, in our security, in our national sovereignty, in, in, in, you kn…

AI assessment note: “so far, um, there were only words, only statements and no actions.”

Q way, many have made because of the U.S. involvement in Middle East and Middle East politics, and the U.S.'s absence of involvement in politics in countries that are not oil rich. Maybe we could talk a little bit about the, the importance of this for the West, not just the economic interest, but, you know, what else is motivating this, and why is the U.S. interested in supporting your cause?

A That claim is not very original. I mean, that's what all of these guys say to anyone That speaks out. If, even if it's, you know, a, a, a union leader, student, or a priest. And frankly, you know, I couldn't care less for what they say. You know, we know what we are, what we believe, and what the people, and why people trust us. We have managed to build the strongest citizen movement in our country's history. Starting in 23, when Venezuela looked Hopeless and divided and without a chance to move ahead. We reached out to every single, I went to every single corner of my country. Look, I went with my car because I had been banned from living Venezuela for over 12 years. I'm not even allowed to buy a local flight ticket. So they thought they were hurting me, but actually they, they gave me that biggest opportunity to, to, to, you know, go through my country from one Point to the other, and to talk to people, to listen, to learn, to understand, to get really close in terms of what we are, in what we believe, to turn down those barriers the regime had built to divide us, and to find out that this is not about left or right, rich or poor, black or white. It is about human dignity. It's about respect, solidarity, cooperation, freedom, and love. And love, which is the strongest force that has brought us together. You know, I've seen people that were close to the Charista for years, com…

AI assessment note: “That claim is not very original... We have managed to build the strongest citizen movement”