The Exchanges

Q So you were always into it. Is, is that what you wanted to do to work in aeronautical engineering or as a pilot or what were you thinking of doing?

A Yeah. I mean, so kind of interesting start to the story. I mean, I, um, I started my day job, which is shift for, you know, it's a, it's pretty large, large fintech now when I was 16. And I was just like most, you know, as you know, entrepreneurs, you're, you're burning yourself out, waking up on the keyboard. And, you know, I said, I need a hobby in life. Uh, so I picked up my passion for flying and I, I, I basically had parallel careers, you know, in aviation and in, and in business. And I started flying Air shows in, ah, in 2010 and 20 11, and I was flying with a bunch of really talented ex-military, even current military pilots, and they were like, you know, you could fly in the, you know, in the Air National Guard or the reserves, and, um, and I found out, well, wow, that's amazing, you can fly fighter jets part-time and serve the country. You need a college degree. I never had one because I, I started my business at 16, so that's actually why I went back to, why I went back to school, went to Emory-Riddle, because it's a, I mean, it's an aviation school, Uh, I think he graduates, um, more Air Force pilots every year than the Air Force Academy. But anyway, that, that's ultimately why I, I got my degree. But my, my pursuits kind of in parallel of, of business and aviation has existed, you know, really since I was a teenager.

AI assessment note: “I picked up my passion for flying and I, I basically had parallel careers”

Q Let's go through that. So you met Elon. Did you get involved as an investor in SpaceX along the way? How did the inspiration for mission come to be?

A In, uh, I did hear that, you know, SpaceX was doing another one of its secondary rounds and I was connected through You know, I think it was Citi, and I went up speaking to the CFO at, ah, at SpaceX, and he's like, no, look, the, you know, funding round is closed, and, um, you know, we're kind of pretty selective on, on who we let in. I was like, okay, great. Well, hey, you know, back in 2008, I actually got the, ah, the first offer to pilot the first Dragon spacecraft, which is wild to think about, like, 2008. And, um, even if I can't be an investor, you know, at some point or another, I'd love to have an opportunity. And he was like, well, can't be an investor now, but we could talk about, ah, a human spaceflight mission. And I had no idea I was going to have an opportunity to be the first. I assumed there was a lot of people in front and, um, man, it was, ah, what a privilege to be able to do that, um, be part of mission design and select a crew of inspiring individuals and raise a quarter of a billion dollars for St. Jude. And it was just a successful mission. It helped open the door for a lot of other commercial missions to come. So awesome experience.

AI assessment note: “can't be an investor now, but we could talk about, ah, a human spaceflight mission.”

Q from twenty five billion a year down to nineteen billion a year. Were you part of the conversation on building this budget? And then I'll highlight some of the features of this budget here in a moment, but did, did you have conversations with the administration as this was being put together and some of these proposals were being considered? I mean, how, how deep have you gone in this?

A No, you know, when you're a nominee, you're actually kept in the dark on a lot of things. Um, you do get briefed on everything that's going on with every center, you know, every major program, things that senators could ask you about from a, um, from like a one-on-one perspective, but you're not given access to sensitive information. You almost need some deniability when you're talking to senators on that. Or else your nominations can get held up really big time. So I wasn't aware. I honestly, uh, I was voted out of committee, you know, uh, the commerce committee by, um, you know, Senator Cruz and, and, you know, 18 other, it was 19 senators in total. And the next day the skinny budget came out. And if that skinny budget had come out, uh, you know, again, a day or two earlier, I would, I would never have made it out of committee because obviously as, as I think is playing out right now, both sides of the aisle are not happy about the, you know, the budget.

AI assessment note: “No, you know, when you're a nominee, you're actually kept in the dark”

Q Who coached you on your one page there and what did it say?

A Nobody coached me on it. It was, uh, it was just, I generally, you know, I've had an opportunity to obviously interact with NASA over the last, I mean, my, my commercial space career now goes on, ah, well, it'll be, it'll be five years in a, in a couple months from when it began. And, you know, during Polaris Dawn, when we were doing suit development, spent a lot of time at NASA using their chambers and facilities, had a lot of, you know, kind of firsthand experience, certainly Kennedy Space Center. So I had a good starting place. And, ah, I think it really just centered on, look, in, in, in this kind of environment, budgets aren't getting bigger. Ah, we do have to do more with less. The agency is doing a lot of littles, a lot of things that other agencies, departments, companies are capable of doing. That's not why the taxpayers fund NASA. Like NASA is funded to do the near impossible that no one else can do. Not things that, you know, companies should be doing for their own competitiveness. You know, uh, NASA helps fund like engine efficiency programs for, you know, um, commercial jet engine providers. It's like, don't they need to do that themselves or else they lose to their competitors? Like, why are we funniest? So basically like an idea to kind of go in, stop a lot of the littles that are not needle movers, that are not why the agency exists and concentrate on the needle…

AI assessment note: “Nobody coached me on it. It was, uh, it was just, I generally”

Q acumen in operating a business in understanding how to manage at scale and really have a similar sort of belief system, I would say to the folks that, that were stepping in to run this administration. So I, I do think what you're saying sounds like what I've heard and makes a lot of sense to me. Um, so, so you then fly out to Mar-a-Lago. What was that like?

A Oh man, that was so cool. I mean, it just happened so suddenly, and I, I mean, just, you know, kind of put together, ah, a quick plan. Ah, at that point, I knew it was consideration for NASA Administrator, but I'll tell you, in the days leading up to it, I was hearing everything from being at the Treasury Department in various roles, and to, um, you know, again, to the Department of the Air Force, but I knew it was NASA, and I was like, well, I gotta, I gotta come with a plan And, uh, and I, you know, put together a one pager for the president and it was a, it was a great interview. I mean, I never really met him in person. I shook his hand kind of once in passing, uh, 10 plus years earlier. And the president was incredibly knowledgeable. Um, I was impressed. He knew a lot about the space program, which makes sense. He, I mean, you know, he helped with commercial crew return operational capability to the U S with, with dragon. You know, a big push on the Artemis program, created the Space Force. He knew a lot. He knew a lot about China. Uh, he knew, we talked a lot about their Air Force actually, which I thought was interesting. Some of my, my, um, you know, defense experience. And, uh, it was incredible. I mean, it was an hour plus long and I, um, I, uh, I came away with it feeling, uh, you know, really good about the opportunity.

AI assessment note: “Oh man, that was so cool. I mean, it just happened so suddenly”

Q Then there were reports going into this weekend that you were going to be Voted on by the full Senate this week, and the estimates where you were going to get 70 confirmation votes, or that was some news report I had read, so it seems like you were going to fly right through and administer NASA. Um, so then what happened?

A So, I mean, I got a call, um, Friday of last week that, um, you know, the, uh, the president has decided to go into a, uh, go in a different direction. Uh, it was a, um, uh, it was a real bummer, and I, uh, I know, like, a number of parties in government need to be notified of that, which, um, You know, I expected to kind of have just a peaceful weekend. And the next thing I knew on Saturday, you know, it was, uh, there was a lot of activity on the internet, but maybe that's just like my perspective. Cause I follow space, uh, and, and such, but it was certainly, uh, you know, disappointing, but, uh, you know, the president needs to have, you know, his person that, you know, he counts on to, to fulfill the agenda.

AI assessment note: “I got a call, um, Friday of last week that... the president has decided to”

Q to the moon, going to Mars. Why shouldn't NASA Be more fully embracing of this private industry capability. Is it because it's Elon or is it because it reduces money going to defense contractors? What is the motivation against going all in on this company, SpaceX or companies like it that have built these competencies that would have been unfathomable just a few decades ago, but are real here today?

A Oh, this is such a deep conversation. Uh, So, um, look, I, I, one thing I'd say is like, I, obviously I love SpaceX and they safely put me into space twice and two awesome missions brought me home and I'm cheering them on. I I'm, I'm happy with SpaceX is doing. I'm thrilled about the investments that blue origins doing that rocket lab is doing, you know, uh, firefly. So it's like, we have a great industry. So the broader question is just, why isn't, why isn't NASA leaning more into commercial? Well, look, it's NASA's foresight that Gave birth to the commercial crew program that enabled even me to go to space. So like, they are thinking in that direction, but there are politics in play. And the nice thing is, is those winds are shifting, uh, throughout my, you know, whole confirmation process, you know, you are educated heavily by some very smart political folks. Uh, they Sherpa you around every Senator. And they were like, look, the, you know, a year ago, two years ago, the idea of talking to senators that are in SLS States, And convincing them we need to be looking a little bit more to the future with commercial and maybe pivoting to things like nuclear propulsion would be a non-starter. And I'll tell you, they were very reasonable. All of them were very reasonable that they know that you're, you know, this, this rocket built on 60 year old technology that's four and a half bi…

AI assessment note: “they are thinking in that direction, but there are politics in play.”

Q thermal rocket engine. I guess having scrutinized this budget, how do you react to what you see being proposed? And does it solve what you've identified as some of the challenges in NASA, or are those more management challenges Does budget create a constraining force here that fixes some of the issues with respect to focus and concentration of capital into the right projects for, from your point of view?

A Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an excellent question. So, so first, like, look, the, the, the reduction, the big budget reduction is a great forcing function for change. And I know there's a lot of people that probably don't want to, don't want to hear that, but, ah, it is true. That doesn't mean I would have landed at nineteen billion in this whole thing, but I fully support, ah, the president and, ah, with the goal of shrinking the budget and, and, and, and getting back to responsible footing. And I do think billions can go a very long way. So, uh, I will just start with that. Everything you just said directionally is, is, is kind of in the right direction. We've already got paid for enough SLS hardware that if you were to terminate for convenience now, you got enough to launch like two or three of them. It's enough to get you back to the moon, check that box, to make sure that you don't have any economic or scientific or national security reasons to stay on the moon and, and put your energy much more towards, um, commercial industry. Look, nuclear thermal, uh, propulsion, I'm not a fan of. I like nuclear electric. Nuclear thermal, to test it, you're spewing radioactive debris here on Earth. It's not going to go over well to anyone, and it doesn't really solve your refueling problem. You still need to top it off with hydrogen in space if you want a reusable space plug, so I don't…

AI assessment note: “the big budget reduction is a great forcing function for change”

Q What is there to do on the moon? Why should we go back? What is the purpose?

A I think, you know, it's, it's, it's almost like a, you know, if you're going to go and commit yourself, uh, take risks in a, in a conflict, you know, you want clear objectives. And in my mind, again, aside from the fact that the hardware is already essentially purchased, it's clear objectives. Is there any economic, scientific, or national security reasons to be here? And I don't think we can say that conclusively right now that, that there are none. And China is going, ah, and if they were to find something, even a small probability, a one percent, let's just say, hypothetically, it's helium three, and, and they're gonna usher in a new form of power. Think about how many conflicts that we've had over the last century Over, uh, over sources of power, over energy. Do we want to get that one wrong? And, and are we willing to take a one percent chance and, and that could shift the balance of power here on earth? I don't think so. And we said we were gonna do it for 35 years, and we, and we spent a hundred billion taxpayer money, and like I said, the hardware is there. But I think you do it. You make those determinations. Is there scientific, economic, or national security reason to be here? And if not, you move on. And if companies like Blue Origin and SpaceX and even Rocket Lab are successful with their vehicles, You're gonna have, like, the optionality to go to the Moon. It's no…

AI assessment note: “China is going, ah, and if they were to find something”

Q and you've tried to beat the circumnavigation record a couple of times now. So were you kind of Going to work and then on the weekends flying. I mean, how did you kind of balance running a company trying to do that today while balancing this podcast? I can tell you it's really hard to do that and anything else. It's like, how did you, how did you do that?

A Well, I mean, you know, I, again, I started my business at 16. I started flying a couple of years after that. You know, this is before you have a, you know, a family and other responsibilities. So like literally all I was doing was working and flying, mostly flying at night, which was great. You know, I did that around the world record flight. Didn't get it in no way. Broke it, broke that record in no nine. We did it to raise funds for make a wish foundation, which was, which was cool. And it was a great challenge. And then, um, later on started flying air shows, which was great. And, you know, we did a lot to raise money for make a wish there. And then we, we kind of took, uh, the air show flying, which was just maximum fun, super adrenaline. And was like, we're, we're doing loops and rolls to music, you know, That keeps the fun factor up, but has some commercial intent, also helps the country. So we started a defense company called Drakken. We wound up assembling the world's largest fleet of fighter jets, jets just like this behind me. And we were professional bad guys for the Department of Defense, the Air Force, like we would fly as aggressors, just like in Top Gun, replicating Russian and Chinese, Iranian tactics. I literally, I mean, I remember at Christmas parties in, you know, 2014, 20 15, speaking to the To the workforce. I was like, I hope you all know next to commerc…

AI assessment note: “literally all I was doing was working and flying, mostly flying at night”

Q me the same. I still wear a NASA hat with pride often. But, you know, the agency from an outsider's perspective feels like it's become a laggard. It feels like it's kind of lost a little bit of its luster. Why is that? Do I have that wrong? And if I don't, what has happened to the administration of the agency over the decades that's led to this, this moment?

A Well, I like you, I love NASA and I was so excited to, to contribute. I was honored that the president nominated me. I mean, you've got the best and brightest that show up to work every day and want to win in the high ground of space. And I would have been thrilled to work alongside him. You're totally right. Everything about it, even the, just looking at the insignia, how, how damn inspiring it is. But NASA's got problems. And, um, but that's, that look, that's not unique to them. It's going to be government wide. Whatever I tell you that I think is wrong with NASA, I would guarantee it, you know, is, uh, like, you know, it's systemic across, uh, every government agency and department. Uh, the bureaucracy is super real. No, one's going to be surprised about that. You know, the, you have dozens of layers of leadership. Everybody's got a deputy. I mean, you know, things that, you know, I know like You know, we know in business that certainly Elon knows and instills in his companies across commercial space, like ownership. Like you push ownership down to the lowest levels. You empower the smart people to make good decisions. You know, you give them the tools to make those good decisions. You hold them accountable when you get them wrong. That does not exist inside NASA or the government. There is so many layers of management. Everybody's got a deputy. It's crazy. I would have del…

AI assessment note: “You're totally right... The bureaucracy is super real... you have dozens of layers”

Q it September? You were the first private citizen in human history to perform a spacewalk. Which again, another incredible moment. And, you know, I think it was inspiring for people who realized at that moment that perhaps you didn't need to become an astronaut to be able to walk in space. I mean, it was really just incredible, but how did the continuation go from Inspiration Four to Polaris Tom?

A Yeah, and I, I'd love to, I mean, Polaristan was filled with, we crammed so many really incredible objectives in five days, uh, on top of about 40 science experiments. It was an awesome mission, I'd love to tell you about it. And, you know, but, ah, yeah, so when we came back from Inspiration Four, I thought we checked the box on every objective. I mean, we navigated the whole, you know, billionaire in, in space thing, which at the time with, you know, some of the other, you know, missions that were going off was, um, was attracting a lot of, a lot of heat and really focused it on trying to, to do good in the world that, you know, we can make progress in space and try and, you know, make the, you know, mother earth a better place. And we focused on raising a lot of money for St. Jude and, um, And anyway, like we did, and we did three days of science and research experiments. I felt really good, and we were a little bit short on our, uh, on our, um, you know, our fundraising goal for St. Jude. I mean, we, we set out to raise over two hundred million dollars. We wound up raising two hundred and fifty million, but we were a little short, and we came back, and I was like, man, we almost got everything done, and then Elon sent a tweet right after Splashdown, 40 minutes after Splashdown, and he said, put me in for fifty million, and he already had put in five. And we, we, we exceeded…

AI assessment note: “it was a couple of weeks later that I was invited to go to Starbase”

Q to Elon saying, Hey, we've still got a rescission bill coming. We've still got an appropriation bill coming where we're going to start to fix the budget, but clearly Elon is now getting vocal about his point of view on this. Have you spoken with him at all about what's going on and government spending and his kind of take on things as he's walked out of the office there?

A Well, you know, as, you know, kind of mentioned, I, so I told the Senate too, like I've only spoken to Elon, you know, I don't know, a couple dozen times, most of which related to human spaceflight missions. But when I was talking to him towards the end of last year, it, it was all on government efficiency related programs. And I think Elon got a lot of people Excited about Doge, um, by making like one simple point, the interest rate on the national debt exceeds, you know, the DoD budget. That's scary and it's getting worse and we can't spend our way out of this problem, um, which we've grown a habit to doing. And I know he was very passionate about it and, um, you know, he sacrificed a lot along with all the others, you know, at Doge to try and bring about some significant, you know, spending cuts. And then, you know, to see a bill come in, you know, Uh, whatever, 1200 pages or so that, you know, adds, you know, to the deficit, I think was pretty, you know, pretty disheartening. Uh, I suspect, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, um, you know, I'm not in this, uh, in this fight, and I think, like, trying to codify, like, you know, a handful of billions in cuts probably is, you know, a drop in the, in the bucket, so I can't imagine that's too exciting.

AI assessment note: “when I was talking to him towards the end of last year, it, it was all”

Q And do you think there's a way to fix it without Congress, or is the only way to fix it without Congress? Meaning, there needs to be no Congress if we have a shot at fixing this, and there needs to be a different governing model.

A You know, look, I, I think the, uh, I think this is, this is why I, I absolutely support the, the president that, you know, despite all, I, I mean, I, my single largest political donation ever was to, was to president Trump in this, uh, you know, uh, for, to support his inauguration. It's why I got charged up with, uh, you know, with Elon assembling the Doge team is like, we do have to shrink the government. We do have to get rid of all these inefficiencies, these, the waste and the distractions from the mission. Things that we don't need every taxpayer contributing to, and actually concentrate those dollars, real dollars, on the things that the taxpayers should be fighting for, and when you do that, you know what, like, twenty billion or twenty-five billion is actually a lot of money, and that, you know, and I know, like, it's, it's a super tough budget environment right now, and people, people hate change, but I'm always surprised when, like, a million is not a million anymore, and a billion is not a billion, because you do an awful, awful lot with that, so if there was ever a time to get this done, Uh, it's now with President Trump with, when he has the House and the Senate behind him and, and I'm not surprised that there is frustration from, from people that were really passionate, um, and, and are still passionate when, uh, when this much time goes by and we're not able to…

AI assessment note: “when he has the House and the Senate behind him”