The Exchanges

Q efforts and the dollars that have gone into trying to solve this problem through decriminalization that has obviously led to massive problems in inner cities? Is it a problem, the criminalization in this country, the incarceration in this country? And if so, what's the right path to addressing it? And obviously you have an intimate history here, so you would know this better than most that we would talk to.

A Look, I think it is a problem, and let me tell you what I did as governor. We did criminal justice reform in New Jersey, and we did it in a bipartisan way, and this is what we did. I thought that the biggest problem we had in New Jersey was our, um, our state constitution required, it was a shall issue state on bail. Everyone was entitled to bail under our constitution, and the only factor that could be taken into account constitutionally, David, was risk of flight. So if you had a rap sheet as long as my arm and your arm put together, that could not be considered by a judge in whether or not to grant bail or not, nor could the, the nature of the violence you committed in those acts. I saw that as the enormous problem. I agreed with Democrats that on a lot of these minor drug crimes, and I don't mean dealing crimes, I mean possession crimes, with addicts being arrested for small amounts of possession, that we had become a debtor's prison in New Jersey. That if somebody couldn't afford the 500 bucks For the minimum bill, which was usually 5000 dollars. They spent more time in, in, in county and state prison than they ever would have spent if they had, you know, just pled guilty and been allowed to plead guilty and get sentenced. So the deal we made was this. On certain defined nonviolent crimes, I would agree to the state law allowing release on people's own recognizance. In ret…

AI assessment note: “Look, I think it is a problem, and let me tell you what I did as governor.”

Q Well, I mean, if you thought his answer was sophomoric, why'd you endorse him two weeks later?

A I endorsed him because I was convinced he was going to be the Republican nominee for president. And I didn't want Hillary Clinton to be the president. And so having been in that race, competed with him after he won South Carolina, convinced he was going to be the nominee and having at that time had a 15 year relationship with him. My view was I could go in there and try to make him a better candidate. And if he won a better president. And that's why I endorse him. Absolutely nothing to do with his sophomoric answer on that. I didn't like his answer, um, on the wall either saying Mexico is going to pay for it. I thought that was sophomoric as well, but you know what? In American politics, You don't get to all vote for the candidate you want to vote for. Um, you get to vote for the ones who are left. And if, if I had my first choice in 16, it would have been me, but that didn't work out. So I defaulted into Trump because I thought he was a better choice than Hillary Clinton. And by the way, still do think he was a better choice than Hillary Clinton.

AI assessment note: “I endorsed him because I was convinced he was going to be the Republican nominee”

Q Is there anything about Joe Biden's policy in Ukraine that you would change?

A Yeah, would have been much more aggressive in providing military hardware much sooner, um, than what he did. And I think he's been, he's been the hand wringer on it. Every step has had, has been preceded by fretting and burrowing, um, furrowing brows and, and, and, uh, hand wringing. And I think if you're going to be in this, you have to give them the tools they need to win. Um, when I met with Zelensky a month ago, He made it very clear to me. He had no interest in American or allied troops in Ukraine now or ever. He felt this was Ukraine's war to win or lose, but that they needed the, uh, the, the military hardware necessary to, to compete in this war against Russia. And that, you know, my view of what their biggest concerns were, which I, the ones that I agree with are the pace of An amount of armaments that have been given, not only by the U.S., but by the rest of the NATO allies as well.

AI assessment note: “would have been much more aggressive in providing military hardware much sooner”

Q last question from my end, which is why are you running for president? Recent polling data shows a 52% unfavorable rating, 23% favorable, and you're at three and a half percent in the average of the national polls. What's the goal here? Help us understand how you think about the campaign and how you think about your future as a political operator and what your goal is with the campaign.

A My goal is to be president of the United States. And since I've been doing this for a while, I don't pay attention to national polls because we don't have a national primary. And in fact, we don't have a national general election. What we have is 50 individual state elections. That's the way we nominate candidates. And if you look at the most recent poll in New Hampshire, I'm in second place in New Hampshire at 14%. Ahead of Ron DeSantis, ahead of Vivek Ahead of Nikki, ahead of Pence, um, and behind only Trump. And now I'm behind by 20 points. I'll give you that. But I'm behind a guy who's only at 34% in that poll. And so I absolutely believe I can win New Hampshire. And I believe if I win New Hampshire, David, then the whole race changes.

AI assessment note: “My goal is to be president of the United States.”

Q of commentators who say that you kind of were the Trump before Trump. You had this combative style, this kind of take no prisoners sort of attitude. And you kind of had a moment in 2012 where it looked like maybe you could have been the front runner or the candidate. I guess, why didn't you go for it in 2012, and I mean, do you regret that at all?

A I don't regret it, and I wasn't ready to be president, and that's why I didn't run. I know it seems quaint now, after Barack Obama and Donald Trump had been president, but, you know, back in 2012, I really felt like it was necessary to feel in your heart and your mind you were ready. When people started talking about me running for president, I hadn't even been governor for a year. And before that I'd been a prosecutor and in my heart, I just, David, you know, it just didn't feel like, um, I was ready to be president. And if I don't feel something in here, I'm not going to be very effective at making the argument politically. Norma could be able to convince people to give me their money, which you need to do as well. And so, no, I don't regret it. And by the way, you know, all those commentators who say that never ran for a goddamn thing in their lives. And you know, they all can think, oh, you would have won. You would have beaten Romney and you would have beaten Obama. Maybe I would have, maybe I wouldn't have, but that's kind of like the dog catching the garbage truck. If you don't think you're ready and you catch it, the worst moment wouldn't have been losing that election. The worst moment might've been winning it. And getting into the Oval Office for the first time and saying, oh my God, am I really ready to do this? So I don't have any regrets. I really don't. And, and, …

AI assessment note: “I don't regret it, and I wasn't ready to be president”

Q of the underlying behavior was really bad, and I've said so on the pod before. I'm not defending the underlying behavior. What I question is the wisdom of one president, basically Biden, his Justice Department going after the former president, who is currently the leading candidate in the election against him, and doing it Within a year before the election as opposed to three years ago, how is that wise?

A David, let me ask you a question. First off, if they had indicted Donald Trump six months after January sixth, you know what everybody would have said? Rush to judgment. No good investigation. They had this predetermined. You can't win as a prosecutor on that one. Either you went too quick, Or you waited too long. So I don't buy that at all. I think it's bull. Now on the question of whether or not a president should allow his justice department to charge someone who is his predecessor and potentially an opponent again. Well, what's the alternative? Let's say on, let's take it away from the January six one and look at the documents one. If he obstructed justice, If he lied and obstructed the grand jury subpoena, if he kept classified documents, he was not entitled to keep and then hid them from his own lawyers when they were trying to respond to that. If he instructed people to delete surveillance camera video, which would have shown him having people move those documents, then all you have to do is declare for president and you don't get prosecuted. I mean, I understand it's a lousy situation, but there are a number of people who believe that the only reason Donald Trump is running for president again is to be able to make that argument. And so, I understand it's an awful- No. No, I think he wants retribution from the seat of power for everybody who thinks did him wrong.

AI assessment note: “Either you went too quick, Or you waited too long.”

Q to you right now? Or do we think that this is a can that we kick down the road and we'll solve this problem later? We'll grow our way out of it. If we cut some spending, it'll fix itself. It seems so core to me that the future of the United States is going to be dependent on how we're going to manage this fiscal emergency that we're facing.

A Well, look, uh, David, it's core to me too, and I'm, you know, if you've seen any of the excerpts from any of the town hall meetings I've done so far, um, you know, I've been talking about both the issues you just raised. Um, it, first off, I think on the, on the deficit and debt side, I learned about this after becoming a prosecutor and having to come to New Jersey and inherit two problems immediately. We had a two billion dollar short-term deficit for the last five months of the fiscal year that I inherited. And then we had an eleven billion dollar deficit on a twenty nine billion dollar budget for the fiscal year starting July one of 2010. And I had to deal with both those things, and as you know, unlike the chart, That was just shown. You don't get to run it up. You, you have to square it. Um, and so, you know, I learned how hard it is and how ugly it's going to be for your popularity to do these things. So on the, on the first piece on the two billion, we sat down, I refused to raise taxes and we sat down and we eliminated 683 individual programs completely. And then swept every surplus from a school board in the state. And the way we did that was we reduced their state aid by the amount they had in surplus to get the two billion in balance. And then extended that into the next budget cycle, kept all those cuts in place, which did some structural, uh, you know, refiguring …

AI assessment note: “it's core to me too, and I'm, you know, if you've seen”

Q In your experience as a prosecutor, is there any legitimate reason why somebody would want to use a pseudonym for communicating with their son?

A Um, look, uh, burner accounts always raise my eyebrows, um, as a former prosecutor. But what I will say is that I would understand someone in public life if they're communicating with family, wanting to do that in a way where it wouldn't be detected by folks who are prying in one way or the other, whether that might be media, but more particularly hackers and other folks who are able to do things that I really don't have much understanding of, except to be fearful of them. Um, so I don't want to say that is a de facto proof point, David. But again, going back to my seven years as a U S attorney, um, when I saw someone having a burner phone or other types of burner accounts, definitely made me say, let's take a look a little more closely at that and see what we can find. Yeah. So at a minimum, at a minimum, it's suspicious for sure and deserves inquiry.

AI assessment note: “I would understand someone in public life if they're communicating with family”

Q dollar appropriation. That seems like a ton of money that could have been spent domestically. What little hand-wringing there was, was on the giving of F-sixteens and Abrams tanks, and the reason for that, Biden said, was that it could lead to World War III. I mean, are you not concerned about those kinds of escalations? I mean, isn't that a good thing to be concerned about, not dismissive about?

A It's always, it's always important to be concerned about it, but you have to be thoughtful about it and look at what the, what the alternatives are. And to me, the alternative of allowing the, the combination of China and Russia, um, to, to route Ukraine, uh, is something that's not in the U S vital interests and Will lead to other problems as well with China going forward. And so, um, these are, none of these are easy decisions, Dave, but what they are, are the ones that you want someone who is thoughtful and has some experience making them as president. And I don't think Biden checks either of those boxes sufficiently. And I think his conduct has shown that. And by the way, the same applies to Trump.

AI assessment note: “It's always, it's always important to be concerned about it, but you have to be thoughtful”

Q What are your top two areas where you would cut in order to save entitlements? What are the other areas where you would go to find savings?

A Well, look, I think, I think we, we have to look at social spending in general. Um, that's really drastically increased post COVID and those increases have not been taken back. So I think you have to look at all the programs that were ramped up during COVID and say, okay, Um, what's it gonna be to bring it back to pre-COVID spending to start? And then, after you do that, a further evaluation of, of those programs to see if they're effective. And I think that would get you a good part of the way there, given how much spending increased during COVID. Um, I, I think secondly, um, we need to look at the way we fund education in this country as well. Um, and whether or not when we're spending eight hundred billion, um, what do we do with the eighty billion the federal government spends? Another place, an interesting place to look. Small in comparison to a two trillion dollar debt, I understand, but, um, that's another place I would look. And the only place I really wouldn't look is on the military side at this point, because I think you've got to increase efficiency and effectiveness at the Pentagon But on the other hand, I, I don't think, um, that this is the time to be cutting back there when our Navy and Air Force are both in the conditions they're in.

AI assessment note: “look at all the programs that were ramped up during COVID”

Q Are you willing to say to Chris Ray, as I understand it, you, you recommended Chris Ray for the position many years ago, and, and you're, I think you're a fan of his. Are you willing to say to him, knock this off? You should not be, you know, involved in censoring American social media accounts.

A I'm willing to say to Chris exactly what I just said to you. And, and by the way, I I've known Chris long enough. I mean, we were in the Bush justice department together starting back at nine, you know, right in the media post nine, 11 period. So I've known Chris now for 22 years. Um, I will say exactly what I think to Chris and will instruct him appropriately with the Attorney General. And let me just make a point, David, since you brought that up. I don't think presidents should be involved in the criminal investigatory activity of the Department of Justice in any way. And so you should set policies that say like that. You know, your work should be restricted on monitoring to just domestic or inter, or, or, or international terrorism, but you shouldn't be commenting in any way on what they're doing from a criminal investigatory perspective. I think that started in the Obama years with Eric Holder. When you appoint your wingman attorney general, I guess that's what happens. And the fact is that It's continued through the Trump years and now through the Biden years. And my instruction to my attorney general will be the same as it was because in New Jersey, we don't elect the attorney general. We appoint them like you do in the federal system. And what I said to each of my attorneys general was, I know I was the U S attorney for seven years. I got expertise and opinions on crimi…

AI assessment note: “I'm willing to say to Chris exactly what I just said to you.”

Q It's fine to fact check, but even though it's at all-time highs, if you look at that chart, it seems like there's a big debate on the numbers that, hey, it may be at all-time highs, but it's been relatively the same, and so that's what I'm trying to get at, Governor. Why, why can't we get good numbers on this?

A Well, we do get good numbers on it, but everybody slices the numbers differently. You know, Um, I, I used to work in a deli when I was in high school for a period of time, and, you know, everybody had the same big chunk of bologna, but depending on how you sliced it, um, it looked different, and so I agree with David that it is a very serious problem right now, and it's because of Biden's policies. And his rhetoric. He sent a very clear signal during the 2020 campaign. If I win, the borders open. Let's go. Everybody come on in. And it has caused a crisis in a number of levels. Also, Democratic politicians saying that they were willing to be sanctuary cities and sanctuary states. Well, now, I see the front page of the New York Post every day. And, and here's Eric Adams complaining that he needs help. He needs help. Well, you should have shut up and not said you were sanctuary city. And then you wouldn't need the help, but it's easy.

AI assessment note: “we do get good numbers on it, but everybody slices the numbers differently.”

Q Why don't you give Kushner credit? He was definitely involved.

A No, no, no. He's involved. Congratulations. Why was he sent, why was he sent in the first place? Because of his extensive, his extensive foreign policy experience? Maybe he's managing, managing apartment buildings, managing apartment buildings in New Jersey. That's what he was doing. So look, I absolutely believe that as I answered your question very directly before, that the only reason Hunter Biden was hired for these things was to get influenced with his father. Absolutely. And I think he should go to jail. But we can't look at the, Jared and Ivanka making 40 plus million dollars a year while they were in the White House, getting two billion from the Saudis to invest after they leave the White House and say that's not a grift as well, not to mention the fact that he's spending campaign money to pay his legal fees when he's supposed to be a billionaire. How about you sell the Trump Tower apartment since you don't live there anymore and pay your legal fees with that. Or how about sell one of your frigging golf courses to pay your legal fees with that, but instead at a 100 dollar average donation from Americans who donated to something called Save America, which was supposed to fight the steal of the election, is now being spent to pay his legal fees because he took classified documents illegally out of the White House. And by the way, that same organization paid Kimberly Guilf…

AI assessment note: “Why was he sent in the first place? Because of his extensive foreign policy experience?”

Q What do you think the resolution is here? And if in, I don't know, 16 months you're president or when you're president, uh, how would you deal with this if the war still raging here?

A Well, I think it depends on what disposition the war is in at that point. Jason, I think, um, you have to evaluate how successful has Ukraine been in pushing back. They've made some success in the past couple of weeks in terms of breaking through some of the Soviet initial defensive lines. I think we have to see exactly how successful they've been. Um, but what I would say is that there's, there's no question That this is an, this is a conflict that we need to support and send a clear message, messages that have not been, as I said earlier, since it all clearly to Putin that, you know, this is a guy who has openly discussed the reassembling of the Soviet Union. Um, and I have no, no illusions about the fact that this former KG beer thinks that the Soviet Union were the good old days. And if he thought he could get away with assembling as much of it as he possibly could, he would. Um, and I think that we have to send a very clear message on that to him and a very clear message on that to China regarding authoritarian expansionism. And this is where I think that the Trump, um, DeSantis, Ramaswamy foreign policies are so hopelessly, um, ill-informed and naive. The idea that we're going to go to Putin who yesterday was sitting with Kim Jong-un And persuade him the better places to be with us. Go away from your communist brothers in China and North Korea and come with us. Cause it'l…

AI assessment note: “And this is where I think that the Trump, um, DeSantis, Ramaswamy foreign policies”