The Exchanges

Q Do you find that you've been challenged in maintaining, I would call it external responsibility as you explore and enhance yourself so much? Do you give up the responsibility to others around you who maybe are dependent on you or, or in need of you?

A Yeah, I have three kids. And so, um, I do think about them a lot and I, being a father is a really important thing to me and it's an important part of my identity. And so that has not changed. So I've never, uh, vacillated on that or changed my disposition towards that. Uh, for those around me, I guess, fortunately I have a, a social group that just says go and play. There's, there's really no one in my life that tries to claw me back. There's no Velcro. It's just all encouraging. And so that, I guess I feel very fortunate that everyone around me, and they're willing to take the risks. I mean, this is, when I sat down for five MEO, I mean, my, my partner, Kate, like she's got A ton of risk. Like, what if it goes poorly? What if I change my perspectives? What if something bad happens?

AI assessment note: “being a father is a really important thing to me and it's an important part of my identity. And so that has not changed.”

Q And did you do that recreationally or therapeutically?

A It was mostly therapeutic in that I, I had sold my company branch of MO. I got a divorce. I left the Mormon church and I was trying to remap like, what is life? Who am I? What do I do? So I was in that rebuilding stage where I just dabbled of like, you know, I did, I did ketamine at Kernel. So one of our first studies at Kernel is we said ketamine was a up and coming therapy for depression. And we posed the question, what happens when you do Ketamine. And so we did the world's most extensive measurement of ketamine with kernel before, during and after. And so that was interesting. Like, and it had some kind of, you know, transient effect, but that's like a, a, like a little league relative to

AI assessment note: “It was mostly therapeutic in that I, I had sold my company”

Q And so this is, this has been documented in psilocybin. It's kind of well understood. How did you connect that psilocybin data to an effort in longevity? Or was this just like a random idea? Let's try it out.

A Yeah. It was, so we, we saw some mouse data that it had these effects. It also showed reduced inflammation. Uh, so we said like, this is interesting because most longevity therapies do something with inflammation, right? Like inflammation is the killer. So if you can lower inflammation, a very good sign, uh, if you can do something that makes the brain more youthful and takes down those, those big ruts, that's also useful. What we found in psilocybin though, is it had, we found a first in human observation. It had this This, uh, metabolic reset in the brain where my blood glucose before this was in the top. 99.5 percentile of all the population. Okay. After it went to the top 99.9 percentile, like to move my blood glucose from that level is very, very hard, but basically like, uh, not like metformin where you're doing something on blood glucose. This just had a reset across the body also changed my microbiome. Uh, so we saw full on effects. So then we said, okay, if that had that consequence, Five MEO may have some similar characteristics.

AI assessment note: “we saw some mouse data that it had these effects. It also showed reduced inflammation.”

Q Can we go back just to the content creator piece? Brian, I mean, you basically, um, started talking about Don't Die, And you've created quite a bit of content around this. What's the model for building a business where you, did you actively think, hey, I gotta build an audience to get this effort to be successful?

A Yeah. No, we, we actually didn't, uh, so Kate, my co-founder is here with me. We, we were posing the question, um, we thought it was a cool question to ask, are we the first generation who won't die? You know, it's kind of like in, in, in, in, in, in, in, you're back in there and you, you hear, In town, people are like, hey, there's this new weird idea, there's this guy saying that there's these microscopic objects, they're called bacteria or something like that, they cause infection, they lead to death, and then others are like, that's stupid as fuck, because really it's just, you know, it's bad spirits, we know that's just causing the situation. And so if you're getting a surgery, you really care to know, is this a correct idea or incorrect idea? And turns out, bacteria are real, they actually cause infection, they can lead to death. And I think the parallel here for us right now is like, are we legit the first generation who won't die? And so that was our, our effort, just actually scientifically go do that. And then, uh, someone did a Twitter thread on this, and it just went viral. Yeah, like, fifty million views, and we're like, what the, you know, what's going on? The tsunami of hate came our way. And it was just like, there's so much raw energy under this topic, we didn't know that was the case. And so yeah, we've just been trying to basically take people along the journ…

AI assessment note: “content really been like a, um, An afterthought to a primary mission”

Q What should I be doing right now? Constant conversation.

A Do I feel bad about myself? Do I feel, you know, like I, am I shy? Am I like, do I feel bad about whatever, like you're doing this rumination stuff? Uh, kids don't have this rumination loop. Their, their default mode network is, is quiet. And as you age, You basically build up this default mode network into more stiffer patterns. And so as you age, your experience of reality becomes increasingly narrow. You have these big ruts that form. And so you can just see people in their patterns, like how open a child is to say like very random things. And as adults, you're just very, you're shut in. Like when I did psilocybin, One of the reasons why we did it is because it does have this effect where it dampens the default mode network. And we could pick this up with kernel, the brain interface. You can see how the default mode network weakens. So basically I think of the brain, like a globe with airports scattered about, and you have certain traffic patterns, like New York to London, you have a certain number of flights every day. That's like a very strong connection, but New York to, um, you know, some small town in Arkansas has a very Uh, low traffic map. And so when you do something like psilocybin, it basically takes the airports, picks them up, and then repositions around the world, so it's just all scrambled. So the traffic patterns aren't the same. And then over time...

AI assessment note: “you're doing this rumination stuff? Uh, kids don't have this rumination loop.”

Q How did you get over those risks? Because for a lot of people that would turn them off to trying psychedelics and it's not a non-zero percentage of people that suffer these consequences.

A Yep. I agree. And, and also people who have really bad trips that leave them scarred. So it's, it really is. And I think in, in part of it is, um, what could be contributing to this is Uh, people who, for example, who have tried magic mushrooms, You know, it's in a social situation. Someone's got a bag. You pull out some mushrooms. It's like, yeah, like ways blank and they pop it in, but they have no idea what kind of mushroom strain they're eating. They don't know what the dose of psilocybin is. Uh, so it's like unquantified, unsupervised, wrong set and setting. And so much of it, I think you can, the risk persists, but I don't think we've, we've approached psychedelics with the appropriate rigor that we should to make it safe. And so it's not to say that we can solve for the safety issue for all people. Some people just may not be the appropriate. Candidate for it. But I think if we do create a safety structure around it, they could deliver the benefits people want, uh, without, you know, with less of the risk, but definitely I agree with you. Like it's again, it deserves all the caution in the world.

AI assessment note: “I don't think we've approached psychedelics with the appropriate rigor that we should”

Q Do you think it's like neurogenic neuroplasticity trauma resolution? I mean, what is the way that this is going to be allowed to become call it a medical therapeutic That can be more broadly trialed and then eventually figure out how to bring it to people without it being carrying all the risks and burdens that it does today.

A I mean, if I just subjectively compare my experience with five MEO to having a better diet and exercising every day and, uh, sleeping well and doing the sauna and doing hyperbolic oxygen therapy, this was more efficacious than all of them. In terms of the reset of me as a human. It just is incomparable. And I guess I'm, I'm really left pondering for this molecule to have such a gigantic impact. Now, like how long will it last? What's the decay curve? Like, you know, will I find I, I become the former Brian within 30 days, 60 days. I have to repeat this again. I don't know, but it really is, you know, when you sleep well, you feel great. You exercise great. But like, Nothing like what five MEO did in terms of, of like the reset of me as a human.

AI assessment note: “if I just subjectively compare my experience with five MEO”

Q And What comes after five MEO? I mean, how far do you take this?

A Yeah. Honestly, um, I am so encouraged by psychedelics. I, you know, Like in, in the community where I hang out, psychedelics have always been understood as, you know, it's like a retreat or it's like a, a ritual or you go to like do various explorations, but never in the world of longevity. It's never been understood as that thing. And now after seeing the data, now I, um, And of course you have to be very careful when talking about psychedelics because they're extremely powerful. It's not like go out and do them, everybody, right? It's like, it needs to be done properly with a licensed professional. It needs to be done carefully. The person needs to be in the right state. Like it is not to be taken lightly, but I am, uh, more interested than ever in psychedelic compounds. They're just uniquely powerful.

AI assessment note: “I am, uh, more interested than ever in psychedelic compounds.”