The Ledger, every show

“In a way, I'm really glad this happened, because it is a warning of what we need to get ready for maybe something about three to six months from now, what's going to become standard, right?”

“And it had the ability to do that with like the level of skill that you would have of the manager of a TAO team at NSA right now.”

“Because what you really don't want is you don't want somebody to be able to say to their model, hey, I would like to steal the, I would like to steal money, go figure it out for me, and then let it work for 12 hours, and just steal money for you. Which is, thi…”

“We used a US frontier model, and the US frontier model shut down and refused to defend us because of a cyber protection put in place. Those are the cyber protections that were required by the Trump administration. So we had to switch to a Chinese model to defe…”

“What would be terrible for the entire American AI and cybersecurity industries is if the Trump administration defines a jailbreak as having any ability to find any vulnerability in code, because then all of us have to go to Chinese models.”

“And so now, this week, CIs and CTOs are signing contracts to have open weight models on different hosts, on U.S. Hosts. They're not using Chinese hosts, but they're using Chinese models on as backups through LLM routers because political risk Is now a risk of …”

“It breaks out of the jail, and then it goes, looks at Hugging Face, and finds a brand new vulnerability to breaking the Hugging Face. They have not announced it. I have heard what it is. I'm not gonna make news here, because I don't know exactly what the patch…”

“This incident has put OpenAI at risk of regulation from the White House, regulation from the EU. It is also an admission of the violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, as well as multiple European laws.”

“I think there's absolutely no way you get China to agree to anything like that. I think there's it's impossible at this point. And I think a enforcement of anything like that would effectively be impossible.”

“All you've done is actually hurt the defenders. Who want to have full coverage, right? Who want to be able to find all the bugs. An attacker only needs one or two bugs to string together to actually pull off the attack. And so that's why, you know, so about a …”

“What would be terrible for the entire American AI and cybersecurity industries is if the Trump administration defines a jailbreak as having any ability to find any vulnerability in code, because then all of us have to go to Chinese models.”

“And so now this week, CIs and CTOs are signing contracts to have open weight models on different hosts, on US hosts. They're not using Chinese hosts, but they're using Chinese models on as backups through LLM routers because political risk Is now a risk of usi…”

“If you look at the Fortune 500, I would say 470 of those companies are kind of screwed because they're playing at What's happened is, is that the level of adversary has caught up to a level that's well beyond their ability to play”

“It's the reason why Microsoft has spent probably a billion dollars on security in the last decade, and they still haven't gone anywhere. It's because they're not willing to do a tax service minimization due to the way they do backwards compatibility.”

“It's like an eight. I mean, it's a pretty big deal on a couple of levels. It's a pretty big deal in that OpenAI's model beat them OpenAI, right? So that this went beyond that it was able to trick OpenAI's own security team and get out.”

“The Chinese absolutely have better capabilities in-house than what we can see on the charts, right? Because I guarantee then what those companies are offering to the People's Liberation Army and the Ministry of State Security is way better than what they're re…”

“What the AISI has said is that the difference between the frontier and the Chinese models is about seven months, but I would argue that that underestimates it because the Chinese models that we see are under-trained. So that the internal Chinese capabilities a…”

“This level of capability will be in the hand of every adversary every American company faces.”

“Every American company needs to have AI watching for their defenses, and it's going to be because the attackers are just going to tell their AI, go attack this guy, and the defenders have to tell AI, defend me, because no human being can defend against this.”

“What you should be training it to do is find bugs. You should be training to write proof of concepts. You should be training it to do all the defensive stuff. You should not be training it. To hide it. To hide all those things. Like if the US government wants …”

“You've got people talking about international treaties or whatever. I don't think any of that's going to happen. I don't know what my position is on that, but I just don't think it's going to happen. I just, I think there's no way this is just math and Silicon…”

“That's what's driving people insane right now in the defensive industry, is that because of the White House, American models are refusing to help fix code. They are refusing to help us find our bugs and fix them. Thanks to the White House's actions.”

“This seems beyond even mythos capability and long horizon.”

“We've lost, there was a process in place to create standards for this kind of stuff. That process was stopped by the current administration.”

“I think we're gonna go through a couple of years of craziness. Like, we have 20, we're all living using twenty-something years of really important software that was written mostly in non-type-safe, non-memory-safe languages. We're using, you know, for the soft…”

“The Commerce Department signs an order saying that the models are designated export controlled and that no foreigner, including the Foreign citizens who worked and actually built the models themselves can touch them.”

“This Rubicon was crossed well last year with the Opus four series with the GPT five series. That is when the models became better or as good or better than the best human bug finders and not just as good as the best Bug finders.”

“You can just ask GPT-V to go find these bugs and it will go do it for you. You can just ask Kimi, which is an open source Chinese model. It will go write you these exploits.”

“If our American LLMs know nothing about security, they will create more security flaws. So we cannot create a standard where American LLMs are dumb about security. That would be a humongous own goal.”

“In the case of glass wing, I think it was honestly it. I thought it was not widespread enough. I know of like critical infrastructure companies that don't have access to mythos right now.”

“It is within percentage points of the top closed models from anthropic and open AI in a bunch of things a bunch of evals. We don't know how good it is at bug finding yet, so there hasn't been any good testing here, but encoding a bunch of other intelligence ta…”

“They have found like 10,000 bugs. Now, one of the problems with Glasswing is they found like 10,000 bugs, but they've only fixed a thousand.”

“Use Opus four eight right now, and I guarantee you'll get 70% of the bugs you care about.”

“This Rubicon was crossed well last year with the Opus four series with the GPT five series. That is when the models became better or as good or better than the best human bug finders and not just as good as the best Bug finders.”

“We cannot set the standard that US AI models can't find bugs. That is a terrible, terrible, terrible standard. If you have a, if you are writing software with an LLM, it has to be able to understand what a bug looks like so it does not write those bugs.”

“This whole conversation is predicated on the idea that like the American labs are years ahead of our adversaries. And that is just not true, right? So while Fable was shut down on Tuesday of this week, GLM 5.2 was shipped right from Zeta AI, which is a Chinese…”

“Glasswing is they found like 10,000 bugs, but they've only fixed a thousand. Right. So like you do not want a 10 to one ratio of the bugs you found to fixed.”

“Use Opus four eight right now, and I guarantee you'll get 70% of the bugs you care about.”

“No, there's actually a paper from NIST. It's like a kind of a Godel completeness theorem kind of paper that basically says it's impossible to make a model that is completely not jailbreakable.”

“No enterprise with more than a couple dozen people is gonna keep the bad guys from first getting a foothold in their network. That's impossible.”

“The kind of inconvenient truth of the tech industry right now is that there's pretty much nothing a individual person can do to be safe online if they're targeted by a bad guy.”

“You know, there, there's all kinds of risks from AI and, you know, there are all kinds of bad things that happen to consumers. But when you talk about the models themselves, it seems that cyber is the thing that's hitting right now, for sure, from a societal l…”

“And I expect what's going to happen now is that these things are going to be completely and totally physically sandboxed, right? Like, you're going to have to run them in physically disconnected If it needs packages, you're gonna have to move the packages over…”

“If you take those models and you bring them into your own lab and you have a training set of labeled vulnerabilities, if you have a cyber gym, then you can make them much better yourself. And the amount of resources it takes to do that is not extremely high. I…”

“Like a bunch of openweight models have been trained with protections, but you can obliterate those out and you can go on hugging face and look for obliterate and you will find a zillion models where people have removed the protections.”

“These chips are not something you can really control. We have found that in that the Biden era controls on silicon have created a massive industry in China”

“Every single one of them absolutely hated anthropics marketing around mythos and thought it put the entire industry at risk.”

“Anthropic decides to actually follow through instead of immediately getting a temporary restraining order, and they, because they have no ability to make sure that no foreign citizen is, is seeing the models actually pulls them down. Both Mythos which was priv…”