May 7, 2023 · 2h 8m · wtf
Ep #3| WTF is E-commerce: Kishore Biyani, Udaan & Meesho Founders Reveal What Sells and What Doesn’t · Nikhil Kamath
Nikhil Kamath · 28m spoken Sujeet Kumar · 26m spoken Kishore Biyani · 25m spoken Vidit Aatrey · 25m spoken
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In Episode 3 of the 'WTF is E-commerce' podcast, host Nikhil Kamath convenes retail pioneer Kishore Biyani alongside tech founders Sujeet Kumar and Vidit Aatrey for an in-depth exploration of Indian consumer behavior, platform economics, media transformation, and founder psychology.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nikhil holds 26.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Nikhil as informed peer 5.0 Guest teaching 5.3 Guest disagreement 2.9 Nikhil pushing back 2.8
speaking balance: gold is Nikhil, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 1:59:59 Kishore shuts down growth-at-all-costs logic
Kishore forcefully interrupts Sujeet's defense of scaling market share ahead of profits, bluntly stating 'I don't agree' based on his own painful corporate experience.
Hardest push from Nikhil ▶ 1:27:36 Kishore rejects Nikhil's aggregation thesisWhen Nikhil pitches an arbitrage thesis around aggregating Indian independent restaurant chains, Kishore immediately rejects the core premise by stating that profitable businesses do not need capital or forced scale.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 59:40 Kishore's India 1, 2, and 3 consumption reality checkKishore dismantles consultant reports claiming a massive Indian consumer base by breaking down the true discretionary consuming class to just 11-13% of the country.
Nikhil holds their own ▶ 1:23:20 Nikhil's multiplex unit economics and screen density thesisNikhil turns the tables on the guests by laying out his granular investment thesis on Indian screen density versus US/China benchmarks and multiplex revenue drivers.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Nikhil as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Nikhil pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Introductions: Vidit Aatrey and the Genesis of Meesho | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Nikhil sets up a relaxed opening dynamic by playfully interrupting Vidit's standard interview pitch. Vidit walks through his background from farming family roots to IIT Delhi, ITC Chennai, and founding Meesho to serve unbranded offline retail. | |
| Kishore Biyani's Origins and the Psychology of Rebellious Founders | 4 | 5 | 3 | 3 | Nikhil inquires into Kishore Biyani's background and hypothesizes a link between childhood insecurity/rebelliousness and entrepreneurial success. Kishore reframes this, noting the crucial difference between growing up in scarcity versus abundance. | |
| Generational Shifts, Scarcity Mindset, and Investor Biases | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | Nikhil shares his venture investing heuristic of avoiding entitled founders born into wealth. Kishore pushes back directly, arguing wealthy founders excel in distinct categories that others cannot tackle. | |
| The Birth of Big Bazaar: Indian Bazaars, Saravana Stores, and Tirupati | 4 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Kishore shares operational insights behind creating Big Bazaar, detailing how he studied crowd dynamics at Saravana Stores and Tirupati Temple rather than Western retail formats. The panel acknowledges Kishore as the pioneering figure of organized Indian retail. | |
| Sujeet Kumar's Journey: From Bihar to Flipkart and Udaan | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Sujeet recounts his trajectory from Hindi-medium schooling in rural Bihar to IIT Delhi, co-founding early logistics, and scaling supply chain operations at Flipkart before starting Udaan. | |
| IIT Networks, Angel Investing, and the Booming Food & QSR Market | 4 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Sujeet breaks down his shift from tech angel investing into profitable physical QSR models, citing Rameshwaram Cafe's extraordinary unit-level revenue and margins from compact footprints. | |
| BlissClub and the Evolution of Body-Positive Brands | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Vidit describes BlissClub's community-driven positioning in women's activewear, while Kishore recalls his own plus-size brand All. The group also reflects on the massive contrast in scale seen during their recent visit to Riyadh. | |
| Copying Western Models vs. Value Addition in Indian Brands | 5 | 6 | 4 | 3 | Kishore cautions Indian founders against blindly copying US startup concepts, stressing that long-term enterprise value stems from true domestic brand value addition rather than mere commodity distribution. | |
| Social Media, Visual Search, and Decentralized Influence | 5 | 6 | 3 | 3 | Vidit explains how social media and visual search directly fuel Meesho's discovery loop, while Nikhil questions whether trendsetting remains concentrated among elite arbiters or has become decentralized. | |
| Individualized Media Consumption and Micro-Influencer Marketing | 4 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Kishore explains how individual smartphone usage fragmented mass media into personalized cohorts, requiring modern brands to partner with authentic micro-influencers whose values mirror their target demographics. | |
| Meesho's Hyperlocal Marketing Strategy and Future Content Creators | 4 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Vidit shares Meesho's regional marketing strategy, noting that localized campaigns utilizing vernacular figures consistently outperform pan-India celebrity endorsements across Tier 2+ markets. | |
| The Reality of Indian Consumption: India 1, India 2, and India 3 | 5 | 7 | 4 | 2 | Kishore deconstructs Indian consumer demographics into India 1, India 2, and India 3, arguing that true discretionary consumption is limited to the top 11-13 percent rather than the inflated figures frequently touted by consultants. | |
| Indian Macroeconomics, the ₹15 Lakh Crore Wedding Economy, and AI | 6 | 5 | 3 | 3 | Sujeet highlights the scale of rural purchasing power while Kishore brings up the massive 15 lakh crore wedding economy, highlighting how deeply seasonal and societal rituals drive Indian retail expenditure. | |
| What Sells: Fulfilling Needs vs Ego and the Impact of Channel Shifts | 5 | 6 | 3 | 3 | Kishore outlines how products succeed by fulfilling basic needs or catering to consumer ego, while Vidit emphasizes that shifts in distribution channels radically alter what types of products can win. | |
| The Shift from Need to Aspiration in Indian E-Commerce | 5 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Vidit and Kishore discuss the steady climb in discretionary aspirational purchases among India 2 consumers, who seek affordable versions of lifestyle items they discover on social feeds. | |
| Unit Economics, Gen Z Consumer Behavior, and Future Channels | 4 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Sujeet highlights shifting Gen Z shopping behaviors, such as preferring offline stores for clothing fits due to return fatigue while maintaining high online engagement for feature-driven electronics. | |
| Value Propositions: Comparing Amazon, Meesho, and Flipkart | 6 | 5 | 3 | 4 | Nikhil presses on the differentiation among e-commerce giants. Vidit and Sujeet delineate how Amazon anchors on high-speed convenience for a narrow affluent base, whereas Meesho targets maximum unbranded selection at lowest price points. | |
| The Multiplex Dilemma: PVR, OTT Disruption, and Dining Trends | 7 | 5 | 3 | 3 | Nikhil details his investment thesis and screen-density analysis regarding PVR and multiplexes, while Kishore points out that entertainment budgets have heavily rotated away from cinema into social dining. | |
| The Economics of Dining: Scaled QSR vs Iconic Independent Restaurants | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | Nikhil proposes roll-up aggregation of iconic local eateries to capture public market valuation arbitrage. Kishore and Sujeet push back firmly, noting profitable restaurant founders value autonomy and quality over hyper-scaling. | |
| The Fatal Flaws of Entrepreneurs, Debt Traps, and Self-Awareness | 7 | 7 | 4 | 3 | Kishore reflects candidly on excessive debt fueling his downfall, linking it to Shakespearean tragic flaws. Nikhil connects this to Jungian shadow psychology, while Vidit and Sujeet debate founder paranoia versus blind spots. | |
| Decoding ONDC: Open Networks, Merchant Digitization, and Platform Moats | 6 | 6 | 3 | 4 | Vidit evaluates ONDC's promise to digitize small merchants like UPI did for payments, but points out the major unresolved design flaw: commoditizing distinct platform supply chains and brand identities. | |
| Evaluating Nykaa and Analyzing Meesho's Operating Scale | 6 | 5 | 3 | 4 | Nikhil prompts an evaluation of Nykaa as India's primary listed pure-play e-commerce asset. Vidit notes Nykaa's niche vertical focus with high AOVs contrasts sharply with broader mass-market horizontal platforms. | |
| The Post-Bubble Era: The Growth vs Profitability Debate in E-Commerce | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | Nikhil challenges the guests on how e-commerce will survive when cheap venture capital dries up. Sujeet and Kishore clash over whether growth or profitability comes first, while Vidit emphasizes that scale is mandatory before turning profitable. | |
| Technology's Moat in Commerce and Final Advice for Founders | 5 | 5 | 2 | 2 | The panel wraps up with concluding thoughts on the permanent convergence of digital and offline commerce, advising new founders to master influencer channels and digital merchandising. |
Statements from this episode (57)
Aatrey: 85% of Indian retail is long-tail unbranded small businesses
“And 85% of India retail happens via a lot of these long tail unbranded small businesses.”
Kamath: My funds are wary of investing in wealthy founders
“I didn't realize this for a long time, but very organically you've, at least we formed a filter. By we, I mean different funds I'm a part of. That if somebody was a very entitled guy, if somebody was the son or a daughter of a very rich man, you would have thi…”
Biyani: Future Group compounded at 30% annually for 30 years
“I would say, in 30 years, we compounded at 30%. So it was serious. For 30 years, we did grow every year.”
Biyani: Future Group opened first 3 Big Bazaar stores in 22 days
“So we opened three stores in 22 days so that we could build some volumes and some scale.”
Biyani: Future Brands conducts nationwide research every six months
“We, as a group, we have an organization, which is called Future Brands, wherein we, from the last 15 years, every six months, we do a Bharat Darshan, and we record every societal change happening in the country.”
Biyani: Future Group studied Tirupati temple to manage store crowds
“So like when we used to get huge crowds in big bazaar stores, we went to Tirupati temple to understand how to manage crowds.”
Biyani: Big Bazaar was inspired by Saravana Stores in Chennai
“So Big Buddha was, in fact, conceptualized from inspiration or Savarna more than anything else.”
Kumar: Flipkart started as a proprietorship to get a payment gateway
“By the way, when I joined, it was not even a company, it was a proprietorship. Because I didn't get a payment gateway online. So Sachin, father was a trader in, in, in, in Punjab Chandigarh. So he has some balance sheet where he will get the city avenue. That'…”
Kumar: Third Wave Coffee is profitable and valued around $200M
“I think somewhere now they are valued around two hundred million, something like that. And it's good because they're profitable business.”
Kumar: Indian QSR startups can scale to 2,000–3,000 stores
“And I believe that they will open 2003 thousand stores in this country.”
Kumar: Rameshwaram Cafe runs on 70% gross and 30% EBITDA margins
“I'm just saying it's a 70% gross margin. They must be doing EBITDA and monthly level generating around 30%. Minimum.”
Aatrey: BlissClub is India's first women-focused fitness brand
“What she's trying to solve is she's fundamentally building the first women focused fitness brand, right? Because in India, most fitness brands have always been associated with men. Like no one saw women focus problems.”
Biyani: Plus-size brand aLL was Future Group's most profitable business ever
“So we had a brand, we built a brand called All, a little larger. That became very big. Actually, it was the most profitable business we ever created.”
Biyani: Future Group built around four or five 1,000-crore brands
“So, we were able to build around four, 5000 crores brands.”
Biyani: Amul is the biggest brand India has ever created
“Amul, Amul I think is the biggest brand India has created ever.”
Biyani: Future Group launched FutureBazaar.com around the same time as Flipkart
“We started FutureBazaar when, FutureBazaar.com and Flipkart had, along the same time. ... Around the same time, 2008, nine, yeah.”
Biyani: Physical-first retailers fail at digital because they cannot think digital
“Being physical, attempting digital was the biggest mistake, because you can't think digital. People who are born digital, think digital. So you were born physical and thinking digital was adding one more layer, but that doesn't work.”
Biyani: Brands can no longer be built using traditional TV or print ads
“Now you can't build a brand on newspaper advertising or television advertising, or outdoor. Now the way to create a brand is completely changed.”
Aatrey: Meesho users frequently image-search Instagram screenshots to buy products
“One of the very common Products that people use on the Misho app is people take photographs and they search that same photograph and buy. And most of those photographs come from Instagram.”
Aatrey: Activewear brand BlissClub was built entirely on Instagram
“That entire brand was by the way built on Instagram. Like everything was built on Instagram and they found people.”
Aatrey: Fashion trends have decentralized into relatable, body-double influencer followings
“I feel now it's very decentralized to some extent, and everyone knows what kind of person feels like a body double to me, right? Like, hey, this person has the same beliefs, same liking, same kind of body, and I like this person, I want to buy what they would …”
Biyani: Shifts in dominant media fundamentally change all consumer behavior
“We believe that whenever a dominant media or communication method changes, everything changes around it.”
Biyani: A single movie placement virtually created Indian apparel brand Biba
“I remember we made a movie and there was a particular dress which was made by Biba and they still sell that dress after 14 years or 15 years. And that, virtually that dress made Biba as a brand also to a great extent.”
Meesho CEO: Micro-influencers outperform celebrities via brand alignment
“Very, very small influencers are very effective, because it's just not go to the celebrity with millions of followers. You have to find someone who connects with the principle of the brand.”
Vidit Aatrey: Top influencers will match celebrity follower counts within years
“In the next few years, some large celebrities will have the same following as, ah, some large influencers will have the same following as celebrities.”
Aatrey: Hyperlocal celebrity marketing outperforms pan-India ambassadors
“So, we kind of, we had different celebrities for different parts of the country.
Like, we had Swaro Ganguly for West Bengal, we had Ram Charan for a certain state in South India.
So, I'm saying it's a, it's basically we went very local
and we saw that to be mu…”
Kamath: Within five years people will watch creator channels like Think School for news
“I think the future of information dissemination, even about finance, is going to move from traditional channels to people like them.
Like, I don't think the day is far, five years from now, somebody will not be watching news.
They will be watching Think School…”
Biyani: 20% to 30% of Indians live on government aid
“And I believe, 20% of India or 30% of India, in some sense, lives on government aid.”
Biyani: India's consuming class is outnumbered 3-to-1 by its serving class
“India one is the consuming class. Anybody who has a domestic help, for me, is the consuming class. Because consuming means not basic consumption, but some value-added consumption. India two is the serving class, which makes our lives better. The driver, the he…”
Biyani: Only 11% to 13% of Indians constitute the real consuming class
“I would say 11 to 13% would be the consuming class.”
Biyani: Peak consumer spending occurs at $7,000 to $11,000 per capita GDP
“The best consumption happens when the economy is around 7000 to 11,000 dollar.”
Biyani: India has 1 crore weddings annually and a ₹15 lakh crore wedding economy
“India has, ah, two crore weddings a year. One crore weddings, two crore families. We produce two and half crore children every year. So, and our wedding economy is 15 lakh crores.”
Aatrey: Indian Aspirational Discretionary Spending Will Grow Non-Linearly
“I just feel like a lot of this as per capita goes up. This 2000 goes to 4000. Most of the increase is happening in discretionary, not like people fulfill their non-discretionary needs anyways, right? So it's going to come here. So I feel that this aspiration t…”
Kumar: E-Commerce Tech Investment Over 15 Years Focused on Backend Systems
“Most of the evolution and sir will agree, has happened technology on backend, rationalizing the technology for applications like what to give to consumers, like pricing search, things like the rescue search, cataloging, things like that. All those investments …”
Kumar: Social Media Fits Fashion Commerce, Not Major Consumer Appliances
“Logically, let's say social media is one of the most leading channels. But for consumer goods, like white goods, Is it the performance? Is it the support? Is it the pricing? I don't know. Let's say buying AC on the social media is very hard to imagine.”
Kumar: Camera Quality Dominates Consumer Consideration When Buying Mobile Phones
“Mobile phone, I'm very clear because it's a feature-led, camera-led. Camera is dominating, let's say, mobile as a category. Because that's the consideration set for new generation as well as for everyone.”
Aatrey: Amazon's core value proposition is speed and convenience over everything else
“Amazon is like convenience. So I want to stand for convenience, right? So they will make sure that everything that you order, you always feel like it comes faster here. As compared to anyone else.”
Aatrey: Meesho's core positioning is the deepest selection at the lowest prices
“When they come to Misho, people believe that this selection I will not get for a more affordable price anywhere else. Like they have to believe this. And I will get the largest possible selection in the price points that I can afford.”
Kumar: The Indian consumer segment prioritizing convenience over price is very narrow
“I think Amazon has a, like he is saying that convenience, but that audience in a bucket, even in bucket A is very narrow.”
Kamath: Holding around two percent stake in PVR
“I still have, I've reduced my shareholding, but I have about two percent.”
Kamath: Multiplexes generate up to 45% of income from food
“And food as an income source for multiplexes is really high, as high as 40, 45%.”
Biyani: Entertainment spend has shifted from multiplexes to dining at restaurants
“If you look at the multiplex industry, That money of spend, which was supposed to go to multiplex, is definitely to restaurants now. People are spending two and half hours, family sitting together, friends sitting together, and spending that one and half 1002 …”
Kamath: Indian coffee shops suffer financially because customers linger for hours
“The difference between the West and India is in the West, people are going into a coffee shop to actually drink coffee. The culture of buying a coffee and walking, especially in New York, is such a big thing that the financials work out for them. Here, if you …”
Biyani: Future Group failed by growing on debt without a strong balance sheet
“So what went wrong is basically growing on debt and not building a strong balance sheet.”
Aatrey: Only 1M to 1.5M of India's 60M small businesses sell online
“Very, very India has about sixty million small businesses, about million, million and a half only sell anything online.”
Aatrey: Indonesia has 15M online sellers compared to India's 1.5M
“You look at Southeast Asia, e-commerce, they started four years after India. About fifteen million people who sell online, online just in Indonesia. India is still a million, million and a half.”
Aatrey: Marketplaces cannot be commoditized like payment protocols
“Payments are same on every app. It's not that my, if I do payment with one app to the other, they stand for different things. Payments is a commoditized one simple thing. Products are not. Like it's two different stores you go to cannot be exactly the same. Th…”
Vidit Aatrey: Nykaa does not represent mainstream Indian e-commerce
“I don't think that company is a good representation of India e-commerce. It's very narrow in a category, and very narrow in terms of the customer base they serve. Their average order value, if I remember, comes from 1518 102,000, something like that.”
Vidit Aatrey: Meesho was valued at $5B in last round
“Our valuation, this is the last round of about five billion.”
Vidit Aatrey: Meesho completed 1 billion orders across 140M customers
“We have about 14 crore people who buy from us every year, about a million small businesses. In the last one year, we did about one billion orders, which is about a hundred crore. That's about a hundred crore orders in the last 12 months.”
Aatrey: Meesho's average order value is just 320 rupees
“Three 20. And that's the, I'm saying, that's the problem we have to solve.”
Kishore Biyani: Nykaa succeeded via content-to-commerce and timing
“I believe it's picked up the right category at the right time. And secondly, they build their own strength of the content to commerce. I think it was a very interesting way they build it.”
Aatrey: Early profitability pushes e-commerce companies into a negative spiral
“There are one stage of the business, especially in e-commerce. You need to cross a critical mass of scale. And unless you get there, if you try to become profitable too soon, you get into a negative spiral.”
Aatrey: Meesho will become profitable by the end of 2023
“So, our goal is, I think by the end of this year, we'll become profitable.”