Sep 16, 2021 · 29m · we-live-to-build
Second From the Bottom to Second From the Top in One Move
0:00 / 0:00
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the 'We Live to Build' podcast, host Sean Weisbrot and customer strategy expert Brad Cleveland discuss how organizations can break down departmental silos, foster psychological safety, and elevate employee experience to drive superior customer satisfaction.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Sean holds 33.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Sean as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 3.4 Guest disagreement 0.2 Sean pushing back 0.3
speaking balance: gold is Sean, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 25:03 Challenging generational stereotyping of Gen Z
Brad directly pushes back against Sean's framing of Gen Z as uniquely disruptive, using an anecdote about museum kids on phones to argue against broad generational buckets.
Hardest push from Sean ▶ 26:16 Re-pressing on specific Gen Z CX transformationsAfter Brad deflects Sean's focus on Gen Z by discussing cross-generational value, Sean firmly restates his question to demand specific examples of companies adapting to Gen Z.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 6:00 Flawed metrics in average handling timeBrad educates the host on how rigid contact center efficiency metrics like handling time often misdiagnose proactive customer education as poor performance.
Sean holds their own ▶ 16:42 Demonstrating cross-functional operational designSean demonstrates his own management expertise by detailing how he structured workflows linking design specifications, product management reviews, and engineering sprints.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Sean as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Sean pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Podcast Preview: Mastering Customer and Employee Experience | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Sean introduces Brad and asks what drew him to customer experience. Brad outlines his career history and explains how customer service differs from broader customer experience. | |
| The Figma Frustration and Playing the Long CX Game | 5 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Sean illustrates poor customer service with an anecdote about Figma's delayed support response and customer lock-in. Brad validates the example and explains the importance of playing the long game in customer retention. | |
| Case Study: Redefining Performance Metrics in Tech Support | 1 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Brad delivers an in-depth case study of a tech support rep whose handling times were double the average because he trained users on features. Sean listens as Brad illustrates how management turned that into organizational video training. | |
| Building Customer Rapport Through Authentic Video | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Sean details his plan to use authentic founder onboarding videos on sign-up pages, which Brad affirms. Brad then explains why he authored his book to demystify overly technical CX jargon. | |
| How the Pandemic Accelerated CX and Remote Work | 4 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Sean describes how his startup builds shared data pipelines to eliminate department silos and asks how CX should integrate. Brad shares a case study of a consumer products team analyzing spray nozzle failures to eliminate customer complaints. | |
| Empowering Employee Voice and Cross-Functional Workflows | 5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Sean shares his startup's operational handover processes between product management, engineering, and design. Brad connects Sean's leadership approach to W. Edwards Deming's principle of driving out fear. | |
| Leveraging Non-Specialists and Uncovering Hidden Talents | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Brad emphasizes the value of non-specialists asking naive questions, prompting Sean to share how his early lack of technical training helped him learn product design from his CTO. Brad stresses uncovering latent employee skills. | |
| Elevating Employee Experience to Drive Business Growth | 5 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Sean argues that Gen Z will force companies to reshape CX and cancel non-compliant brands. Brad pushes back on generational stereotyping using a museum phone anecdote, though Sean follows up by pressing on concrete shifts like shorter user guides. | |
| Core Principles for Delivering Exceptional Customer Experience | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Brad recaps the core takeaway that employee experience and cross-functional alignment underpin great customer experience. Sean summarizes the discussion and closes the episode. |
Statements from this episode (12)
Customer Service Is Merely One Part of Broader Customer Experience
“Customer service is just a part of customer experience, which is everything products and processes and promises we make”
Figma Has an Amazing Product but Terrible Customer Service
“I hate to do this just because I'm a paying customer of this product and I really love the product, but the customer service sucks is Figma.”
Slack Promoted Praise While Ignoring 50,000 Complaints Online
“Slack was promoting this like Twitter wall of praise that they had, but what they didn't promote was that there was a website where there were over 50,000 comments about why people hated Slack.”
Average Handling Time Is an Outcome Metric, Not a Performance Driver
“That's just a clock. That's not a driver here. It's just an outcome.”
Most Companies Villainize High-Touch Support Reps Instead of Learning From Them
“But in a lot of organizations, that guy would have been the villain. You know, like, look, pal, put a lid on it. You're costing us a fortune trying to serve these customers. And he would have felt not great about the company. It just would have been a disconne…”
CEOs Do Not Need Hollywood Polish to Build Customer Rapport
“My encouragement to any CEO is look, it's not Hollywood. You're trying to make a connection and invite them in and create that, that rapport and trust. You don't have to be some dynamo on camera and you don't have to do every video either.”
Customer Experience Jargon and Frameworks Risk Repelling Organizational Buy-In
“Customer experience has become kind of a victim of its own success. So as it's grown up, it's become professionalized and lots of unique terms and wonky frameworks that are great. I saw the same thing with the quality movement as it grew up, but it can get to …”
Companies Require a Designated Customer Experience Owner to Bridge Silos
“You have to have an owner of customer experience. Everyone's got to feel ownership in customer experience though, but you've got to have an owner who can help facilitate these connections across the organization and ensure that those communication channels are…”
Non-Specialists on Cross-Functional Teams Often Spark the Best Ideas
“We've got all these specialists, but the best ideas can come from someone who doesn't have a lot of technical background in those areas. I've seen this with technology all the time. What if, or could it do this? Or what if we did it that way? And someone that …”
Employee Experience Directly Drives Customer Experience and Innovation
“Employee experience drives customer experience. We're really talking about what's happening on the inside and giving those opportunities is, such a powerful way to innovate and to ultimately create that kind of product and service and experience for our custom…”
Cleveland's Client Moved From Bottom to Top in Employee Satisfaction
“You know, they were second from the bottom in employee satisfaction. They went from second to the bottom to the second from the top in employee satisfaction. Turnover went down to almost nothing.”
Companies Failing Gen Z's Expectations Will Go Out of Business
“If we don't accept them, we're going to go out of business because they are extremely vocal and they will cancel you very quickly. If you know, are not living up to your promises or things like that. So yeah, I think Gen Z is forcing customer experience to evo…”