Apr 13, 2016 · 25m · top-founders

He Hustled in His Attic for 5 Years Before Hitting $1m, Now Over $4.8m Annually with Robert Moore of RJ Metrics EP 233

Bob Moore · 14m spoken Nathan Latka · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of The Top, host Nathan Latka interviews Robert Moore, co-founder and CEO of RJ Metrics, exploring his journey from developing college poker software and working at Insight Venture Partners to bootstrapping a SaaS business intelligence platform out of an attic into a multi-million-dollar enterprise.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 37.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 3.7 Guest teaching 2.3 Guest disagreement 1.0 Nathan pushing back 3.0
05100:0010:0020:001:19–5:43 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Introducing Robert Moore of RJ Metrics Robert walks through his early poker probability software business and how he leveraged cheap early Google AdWords clicks. Nathan draws parallels to financial loan charts and clarifies the perpetual licensing pricing model.5:44–11:01 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Industry Shift and Deal Sourcing at Insight Venture Partners Robert explains the regulatory clampdown on online poker and how he transitioned into deal sourcing at Insight Venture Partners. Nathan references related founders in the poker space and inquires about cold outbound volume.11:01–13:24 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Venture Funding Criteria and Growth Dynamics at RJ Metrics Nathan repeatedly probes whether there was bad blood between Robert and Insight since they didn't fund RJ Metrics. Robert firmly educates Nathan on private equity fund economics, explaining that Insight writes 50 to 100 million dollar checks and does not invest in earlier-stage startups.13:26–17:35 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 RJ Metrics Business Metrics, CAC, and Churn Dynamics Nathan presses Robert on exact revenue figures, pinning him down to a baseline of 400k monthly recurring revenue based on customer count and ARPU bands. Robert politely resists disclosing non-public metrics while detailing CAC payback and structural churn.17:35–20:06 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Attic Hustle and Journey to One Million ARR Nathan asks for historical revenue figures from 2014, and Robert shares the story of bootstrapping in his attic through the 2008 financial crisis to reach one million in ARR with eight employees.20:08–23:40 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 Trial Connect Volume and The Famous Five Robert explains RJ Metrics' data trial onboarding cadence before answering the rapid-fire Famous Five questions regarding favorite books, Philadelphia tech founders, and sleep habits.1:19–5:43 · Guest teaching 1/10 Introducing Robert Moore of RJ Metrics Robert walks through his early poker probability software business and how he leveraged cheap early Google AdWords clicks. Nathan draws parallels to financial loan charts and clarifies the perpetual licensing pricing model.5:44–11:01 · Guest teaching 2/10 Industry Shift and Deal Sourcing at Insight Venture Partners Robert explains the regulatory clampdown on online poker and how he transitioned into deal sourcing at Insight Venture Partners. Nathan references related founders in the poker space and inquires about cold outbound volume.11:01–13:24 · Guest teaching 6/10 Venture Funding Criteria and Growth Dynamics at RJ Metrics Nathan repeatedly probes whether there was bad blood between Robert and Insight since they didn't fund RJ Metrics. Robert firmly educates Nathan on private equity fund economics, explaining that Insight writes 50 to 100 million dollar checks and does not invest in earlier-stage startups.13:26–17:35 · Guest teaching 3/10 RJ Metrics Business Metrics, CAC, and Churn Dynamics Nathan presses Robert on exact revenue figures, pinning him down to a baseline of 400k monthly recurring revenue based on customer count and ARPU bands. Robert politely resists disclosing non-public metrics while detailing CAC payback and structural churn.17:35–20:06 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Attic Hustle and Journey to One Million ARR Nathan asks for historical revenue figures from 2014, and Robert shares the story of bootstrapping in his attic through the 2008 financial crisis to reach one million in ARR with eight employees.20:08–23:40 · Guest teaching 1/10 Trial Connect Volume and The Famous Five Robert explains RJ Metrics' data trial onboarding cadence before answering the rapid-fire Famous Five questions regarding favorite books, Philadelphia tech founders, and sleep habits.1:19–5:43 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Introducing Robert Moore of RJ Metrics Robert walks through his early poker probability software business and how he leveraged cheap early Google AdWords clicks. Nathan draws parallels to financial loan charts and clarifies the perpetual licensing pricing model.5:44–11:01 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Industry Shift and Deal Sourcing at Insight Venture Partners Robert explains the regulatory clampdown on online poker and how he transitioned into deal sourcing at Insight Venture Partners. Nathan references related founders in the poker space and inquires about cold outbound volume.11:01–13:24 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Venture Funding Criteria and Growth Dynamics at RJ Metrics Nathan repeatedly probes whether there was bad blood between Robert and Insight since they didn't fund RJ Metrics. Robert firmly educates Nathan on private equity fund economics, explaining that Insight writes 50 to 100 million dollar checks and does not invest in earlier-stage startups.13:26–17:35 · Guest disagreement 2/10 RJ Metrics Business Metrics, CAC, and Churn Dynamics Nathan presses Robert on exact revenue figures, pinning him down to a baseline of 400k monthly recurring revenue based on customer count and ARPU bands. Robert politely resists disclosing non-public metrics while detailing CAC payback and structural churn.17:35–20:06 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Attic Hustle and Journey to One Million ARR Nathan asks for historical revenue figures from 2014, and Robert shares the story of bootstrapping in his attic through the 2008 financial crisis to reach one million in ARR with eight employees.20:08–23:40 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Trial Connect Volume and The Famous Five Robert explains RJ Metrics' data trial onboarding cadence before answering the rapid-fire Famous Five questions regarding favorite books, Philadelphia tech founders, and sleep habits.1:19–5:43 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Introducing Robert Moore of RJ Metrics Robert walks through his early poker probability software business and how he leveraged cheap early Google AdWords clicks. Nathan draws parallels to financial loan charts and clarifies the perpetual licensing pricing model.5:44–11:01 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Industry Shift and Deal Sourcing at Insight Venture Partners Robert explains the regulatory clampdown on online poker and how he transitioned into deal sourcing at Insight Venture Partners. Nathan references related founders in the poker space and inquires about cold outbound volume.11:01–13:24 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Venture Funding Criteria and Growth Dynamics at RJ Metrics Nathan repeatedly probes whether there was bad blood between Robert and Insight since they didn't fund RJ Metrics. Robert firmly educates Nathan on private equity fund economics, explaining that Insight writes 50 to 100 million dollar checks and does not invest in earlier-stage startups.13:26–17:35 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 RJ Metrics Business Metrics, CAC, and Churn Dynamics Nathan presses Robert on exact revenue figures, pinning him down to a baseline of 400k monthly recurring revenue based on customer count and ARPU bands. Robert politely resists disclosing non-public metrics while detailing CAC payback and structural churn.17:35–20:06 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 The Attic Hustle and Journey to One Million ARR Nathan asks for historical revenue figures from 2014, and Robert shares the story of bootstrapping in his attic through the 2008 financial crisis to reach one million in ARR with eight employees.20:08–23:40 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Trial Connect Volume and The Famous Five Robert explains RJ Metrics' data trial onboarding cadence before answering the rapid-fire Famous Five questions regarding favorite books, Philadelphia tech founders, and sleep habits.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 62.1% · guest 37.9%0:00 · Nathan 62.1% · guest 37.9%3:00 · Nathan 26.1% · guest 73.9%3:00 · Nathan 26.1% · guest 73.9%6:00 · Nathan 15% · guest 85%6:00 · Nathan 15% · guest 85%9:00 · Nathan 22.5% · guest 77.5%9:00 · Nathan 22.5% · guest 77.5%12:00 · Nathan 41.5% · guest 58.5%12:00 · Nathan 41.5% · guest 58.5%15:00 · Nathan 23.3% · guest 76.7%15:00 · Nathan 23.3% · guest 76.7%18:00 · Nathan 54.2% · guest 45.8%18:00 · Nathan 54.2% · guest 45.8%21:00 · Nathan 29.8% · guest 70.2%21:00 · Nathan 29.8% · guest 70.2%24:00 · Nathan 97.4% · guest 2.6%24:00 · Nathan 97.4% · guest 2.6%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 11:24 Robert rejects the premise of investor friction

When Nathan repeatedly insinuates there must be bad blood or hidden drama between Robert and Insight Venture Partners, Robert firmly shuts down the premise and points to fundamental fund math.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 14:42 Nathan corners Robert on lower revenue bounds

After Robert tries to keep customer contract sizes in a vague tier, Nathan forces a minimum ARR baseline and jokes that prospective VCs listening will think RJ Metrics is tiny if he doesn't revise it upwards.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 11:34 Robert schools Nathan on growth equity check sizes

Robert explains that a multi-billion dollar growth equity firm like Insight only writes checks in the tens to hundreds of millions, meaning RJ's entire capital raise history is too small for their mandate.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 14:42 Nathan constructs an MRR floor from customer counts

Nathan demonstrates sharp SaaS financial acumen by instantly multiplying Robert's 400 customer count by the lower ARPU boundary to establish a 400k MRR baseline on the spot.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Robert Moore of RJ Metrics 3101 Robert walks through his early poker probability software business and how he leveraged cheap early Google AdWords clicks. Nathan draws parallels to financial loan charts and clarifies the perpetual licensing pricing model.
Industry Shift and Deal Sourcing at Insight Venture Partners 3201 Robert explains the regulatory clampdown on online poker and how he transitioned into deal sourcing at Insight Venture Partners. Nathan references related founders in the poker space and inquires about cold outbound volume.
Venture Funding Criteria and Growth Dynamics at RJ Metrics 5636 Nathan repeatedly probes whether there was bad blood between Robert and Insight since they didn't fund RJ Metrics. Robert firmly educates Nathan on private equity fund economics, explaining that Insight writes 50 to 100 million dollar checks and does not invest in earlier-stage startups.
RJ Metrics Business Metrics, CAC, and Churn Dynamics 6326 Nathan presses Robert on exact revenue figures, pinning him down to a baseline of 400k monthly recurring revenue based on customer count and ARPU bands. Robert politely resists disclosing non-public metrics while detailing CAC payback and structural churn.
The Attic Hustle and Journey to One Million ARR 3113 Nathan asks for historical revenue figures from 2014, and Robert shares the story of bootstrapping in his attic through the 2008 financial crisis to reach one million in ARR with eight employees.
Trial Connect Volume and The Famous Five 2101 Robert explains RJ Metrics' data trial onboarding cadence before answering the rapid-fire Famous Five questions regarding favorite books, Philadelphia tech founders, and sleep habits.

Statements from this episode (12)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: Made nearly $100k selling poker software in college
“Yeah, it was almost a hundred grand. It was a pretty steady flow of, you know, I'd go to bed at night and I wake up in the morning and there'd be another half dozen or so of these things that had sold online.”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 5:16
Insight
Moore: Software hiring in non-tech hubs signals strong investment targets
“One of the tactics that always worked really well is actually looking at job sites. Like if you look in cities that are not traditional tech cities and just see who's hiring software engineers, it's usually a really good giveaway of who's, Doing well and well …”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 9:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: Insight Venture Partners targets mature companies with $50M+ checks
“These days, it's a fifty million dollar check, hundred million dollar check, you know, multi hundred million dollar leverage by us. This is not a venture capital firm that invests in startups. Or companies that have not made it to a very mature growth equity f…”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 11:45
Disclosure
Moore: RJ Metrics has raised about $22M in total funding
“About twenty two million dollars we raised in total.”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 12:18
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: RJMetrics has nearly 400 customers and 100 employees, doubling yearly
“We've got just under 400 customers and it's a software as a service sale. So our prices you know, they tend to be you know, on an annual basis, kind of in the tens of thousands of dollars range. And, you know, we've been growing pretty pretty consistently at t…”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 13:44
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: RJMetrics splits customer acquisition 50/50 between inbound and outbound
“It's about a fifty-fifty split between inbound and outbound.”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 15:17
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: RJMetrics operates at a 1 to 2 ARR-to-CAC ratio
“It would basically be between one and two is our ARR over CAC ratio, which is that kind of SAS magic number. So, you know, if our bounds of what we get out of a customer is 10 to a hundred grand a year, you know, the all in sales process broken out within thos…”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 16:19
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: RJMetrics customer lifespan is 3-4 years; startup closures drive churn
“So we typically see customers stick around for multiple years. If you extrapolate out our churn rate, the predicted lifespan of a customer is somewhere in the three to four year range. And that is The biggest source of churn for us, honestly, is because we sel…”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 16:59
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: Quit Insight Venture Partners the day before Lehman Brothers collapsed
“So my co-founder and I quit insight on a Monday and on Tuesday, Lehman brothers collapsed.”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 17:58
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Robert Moore: RJ Metrics operated from an attic for nearly five years
“We basically were working out of my attic for the first four, almost five years of running this business.”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 18:02
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Moore: RJMetrics hit $1M profitable revenue in four years with 8 employees
“Over the course of about four years, we went from zero dollars to one million dollars in revenue. It was a slow, long grind to get there, but we were operating with a million bucks in revenue with only eight employees or so and kicking off cash profitably.”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 18:13
Disclosure
Moore: RJMetrics targets 20 weekly data connections for high-converting trials
“It's not like hundreds because there is an implementation process but we try to get about 20 companies having their data connected on a per week basis and those convert into trials at a pretty high percentage.”
Bob Moore Apr 13, 2016 ▶ 20:14
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