Sep 29, 2016 · 22m · top-founders

EP 432: Boostrapped SaaS Hits $75k MRR, Viral Campaigns, 1000 Customers with KickOffLabs CEO Josh Ledgard

Josh Ledgard · 11m spoken Nathan Latka · 9m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top, host Nathan Latka interviews Josh Ledgard, co-founder of KickOffLabs, exploring how the bootstrapped SaaS company scaled to $75k MRR and 1,000 customers through viral marketing campaigns, disciplined unit economics, and churn management.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 45.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.3 Guest teaching 1.6 Guest disagreement 1.4 Nathan pushing back 2.4
05100:0010:0020:000:28–4:07 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Weekly Contest Winner and Subscription Call to Action Nathan introduces the guest after an initial promotional intro and begins by probing KickOffLabs' value proposition and pricing mechanics. Josh explains the viral referral mechanics and average revenue per user without friction.4:07–7:15 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Managing Campaign Churn and Targeting Agency Customers Nathan leverages his domain background from his past startup Heyo to press Josh on campaign-based churn and paid marketing spend. Josh acknowledges high churn (10%) and explains his mitigation strategy using agency accounts.7:15–9:44 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Bootstrapped Beginnings and Customer Validation Strategy Nathan prompts the origin story and bootstrapped decision. Josh details how they tested 50 initial ideas and used customer validation landing pages to discover the product concept.9:44–12:26 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Financial Growth: 1,000 Customers Toward a $1M Run Rate Nathan calculates Josh's MRR and run rate on the fly based on customer counts and ARPU. Josh confirms the numbers and details historical revenue growth from 2011 to 2015.12:27–15:01 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Unit Economics: Lifetime Value, CAC, and Content ROI Nathan pushes Josh for fully weighted CAC figures based on lifetime value calculations. Josh educates Nathan on why an engineer discounts theoretical LTV by 40% and how content creation serves double duty as support and acquisition.15:01–17:50 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Remote Operations, Business Philosophy, and Exit Valuation Nathan tests Josh with a hypothetical $1M acquisition offer on the spot. Josh firmly rejects the figure, explaining his business valuation expectations and operational requirements for a sale.17:51–21:23 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Sponsor Segment: Toptal Freelance Developer Network Segment features sponsor advertisements for Toptal and HostGator followed by the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions.21:23–21:51 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Interview Conclusion and Episode Key Takeaways Solo host outro summarizing episode metrics, takeaways, and concluding with a call to action.0:28–4:07 · Guest teaching 2/10 Weekly Contest Winner and Subscription Call to Action Nathan introduces the guest after an initial promotional intro and begins by probing KickOffLabs' value proposition and pricing mechanics. Josh explains the viral referral mechanics and average revenue per user without friction.4:07–7:15 · Guest teaching 2/10 Managing Campaign Churn and Targeting Agency Customers Nathan leverages his domain background from his past startup Heyo to press Josh on campaign-based churn and paid marketing spend. Josh acknowledges high churn (10%) and explains his mitigation strategy using agency accounts.7:15–9:44 · Guest teaching 1/10 Bootstrapped Beginnings and Customer Validation Strategy Nathan prompts the origin story and bootstrapped decision. Josh details how they tested 50 initial ideas and used customer validation landing pages to discover the product concept.9:44–12:26 · Guest teaching 1/10 Financial Growth: 1,000 Customers Toward a $1M Run Rate Nathan calculates Josh's MRR and run rate on the fly based on customer counts and ARPU. Josh confirms the numbers and details historical revenue growth from 2011 to 2015.12:27–15:01 · Guest teaching 4/10 Unit Economics: Lifetime Value, CAC, and Content ROI Nathan pushes Josh for fully weighted CAC figures based on lifetime value calculations. Josh educates Nathan on why an engineer discounts theoretical LTV by 40% and how content creation serves double duty as support and acquisition.15:01–17:50 · Guest teaching 2/10 Remote Operations, Business Philosophy, and Exit Valuation Nathan tests Josh with a hypothetical $1M acquisition offer on the spot. Josh firmly rejects the figure, explaining his business valuation expectations and operational requirements for a sale.17:51–21:23 · Guest teaching 1/10 Sponsor Segment: Toptal Freelance Developer Network Segment features sponsor advertisements for Toptal and HostGator followed by the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions.21:23–21:51 · Guest teaching 0/10 Interview Conclusion and Episode Key Takeaways Solo host outro summarizing episode metrics, takeaways, and concluding with a call to action.0:28–4:07 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Weekly Contest Winner and Subscription Call to Action Nathan introduces the guest after an initial promotional intro and begins by probing KickOffLabs' value proposition and pricing mechanics. Josh explains the viral referral mechanics and average revenue per user without friction.4:07–7:15 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Managing Campaign Churn and Targeting Agency Customers Nathan leverages his domain background from his past startup Heyo to press Josh on campaign-based churn and paid marketing spend. Josh acknowledges high churn (10%) and explains his mitigation strategy using agency accounts.7:15–9:44 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Bootstrapped Beginnings and Customer Validation Strategy Nathan prompts the origin story and bootstrapped decision. Josh details how they tested 50 initial ideas and used customer validation landing pages to discover the product concept.9:44–12:26 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Financial Growth: 1,000 Customers Toward a $1M Run Rate Nathan calculates Josh's MRR and run rate on the fly based on customer counts and ARPU. Josh confirms the numbers and details historical revenue growth from 2011 to 2015.12:27–15:01 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Unit Economics: Lifetime Value, CAC, and Content ROI Nathan pushes Josh for fully weighted CAC figures based on lifetime value calculations. Josh educates Nathan on why an engineer discounts theoretical LTV by 40% and how content creation serves double duty as support and acquisition.15:01–17:50 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Remote Operations, Business Philosophy, and Exit Valuation Nathan tests Josh with a hypothetical $1M acquisition offer on the spot. Josh firmly rejects the figure, explaining his business valuation expectations and operational requirements for a sale.17:51–21:23 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sponsor Segment: Toptal Freelance Developer Network Segment features sponsor advertisements for Toptal and HostGator followed by the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions.21:23–21:51 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Interview Conclusion and Episode Key Takeaways Solo host outro summarizing episode metrics, takeaways, and concluding with a call to action.0:28–4:07 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Weekly Contest Winner and Subscription Call to Action Nathan introduces the guest after an initial promotional intro and begins by probing KickOffLabs' value proposition and pricing mechanics. Josh explains the viral referral mechanics and average revenue per user without friction.4:07–7:15 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Managing Campaign Churn and Targeting Agency Customers Nathan leverages his domain background from his past startup Heyo to press Josh on campaign-based churn and paid marketing spend. Josh acknowledges high churn (10%) and explains his mitigation strategy using agency accounts.7:15–9:44 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Bootstrapped Beginnings and Customer Validation Strategy Nathan prompts the origin story and bootstrapped decision. Josh details how they tested 50 initial ideas and used customer validation landing pages to discover the product concept.9:44–12:26 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Financial Growth: 1,000 Customers Toward a $1M Run Rate Nathan calculates Josh's MRR and run rate on the fly based on customer counts and ARPU. Josh confirms the numbers and details historical revenue growth from 2011 to 2015.12:27–15:01 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Unit Economics: Lifetime Value, CAC, and Content ROI Nathan pushes Josh for fully weighted CAC figures based on lifetime value calculations. Josh educates Nathan on why an engineer discounts theoretical LTV by 40% and how content creation serves double duty as support and acquisition.15:01–17:50 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Remote Operations, Business Philosophy, and Exit Valuation Nathan tests Josh with a hypothetical $1M acquisition offer on the spot. Josh firmly rejects the figure, explaining his business valuation expectations and operational requirements for a sale.17:51–21:23 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Sponsor Segment: Toptal Freelance Developer Network Segment features sponsor advertisements for Toptal and HostGator followed by the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions.21:23–21:51 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Interview Conclusion and Episode Key Takeaways Solo host outro summarizing episode metrics, takeaways, and concluding with a call to action.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 65.5% · guest 34.5%0:00 · Nathan 65.5% · guest 34.5%3:00 · Nathan 32.6% · guest 67.4%3:00 · Nathan 32.6% · guest 67.4%6:00 · Nathan 18.3% · guest 81.7%6:00 · Nathan 18.3% · guest 81.7%9:00 · Nathan 29.8% · guest 70.2%9:00 · Nathan 29.8% · guest 70.2%12:00 · Nathan 33.9% · guest 66.1%12:00 · Nathan 33.9% · guest 66.1%15:00 · Nathan 31.9% · guest 68.1%15:00 · Nathan 31.9% · guest 68.1%18:00 · Nathan 81.8% · guest 18.2%18:00 · Nathan 81.8% · guest 18.2%21:00 · Nathan 78.8% · guest 21.2%21:00 · Nathan 78.8% · guest 21.2%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 16:30 Josh firmly turns down a $1M buyout valuation

When Nathan proposes a hypothetical $1M check on the spot, Josh immediately and forcefully dismisses the valuation, setting his target closer to $6M to $8M.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 13:55 Nathan presses for a fully weighted CAC figure

Nathan refuses to accept superficial ad-spend numbers and forces Josh to calculate a fully loaded CAC factoring in team salaries and overhead.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:47 Josh reframes theoretical LTV calculation

Josh points out that straightforward mathematical LTV models are overly optimistic, explaining his practical engineering approach of shaving 40% off paper LTV.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 4:07 Nathan leverages Heyo background to dissect SaaS churn

Nathan draws on his own experience founding and selling Heyo to immediately isolate and analyze the severe seasonal churn risk inherent in campaign marketing software.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Weekly Contest Winner and Subscription Call to Action 4212 Nathan introduces the guest after an initial promotional intro and begins by probing KickOffLabs' value proposition and pricing mechanics. Josh explains the viral referral mechanics and average revenue per user without friction.
Managing Campaign Churn and Targeting Agency Customers 6224 Nathan leverages his domain background from his past startup Heyo to press Josh on campaign-based churn and paid marketing spend. Josh acknowledges high churn (10%) and explains his mitigation strategy using agency accounts.
Bootstrapped Beginnings and Customer Validation Strategy 3111 Nathan prompts the origin story and bootstrapped decision. Josh details how they tested 50 initial ideas and used customer validation landing pages to discover the product concept.
Financial Growth: 1,000 Customers Toward a $1M Run Rate 6112 Nathan calculates Josh's MRR and run rate on the fly based on customer counts and ARPU. Josh confirms the numbers and details historical revenue growth from 2011 to 2015.
Unit Economics: Lifetime Value, CAC, and Content ROI 7425 Nathan pushes Josh for fully weighted CAC figures based on lifetime value calculations. Josh educates Nathan on why an engineer discounts theoretical LTV by 40% and how content creation serves double duty as support and acquisition.
Remote Operations, Business Philosophy, and Exit Valuation 5234 Nathan tests Josh with a hypothetical $1M acquisition offer on the spot. Josh firmly rejects the figure, explaining his business valuation expectations and operational requirements for a sale.
Sponsor Segment: Toptal Freelance Developer Network 3111 Segment features sponsor advertisements for Toptal and HostGator followed by the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions.
Interview Conclusion and Episode Key Takeaways 0000 Solo host outro summarizing episode metrics, takeaways, and concluding with a call to action.

Statements from this episode (13)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Ledgard: KickOffLabs ARPU is around $75 to $80 per month
“The average customer paying per month is around 75 to 80 dollars per month.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 4:03
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Josh Ledgard: KickOffLabs experiences roughly 10% monthly customer churn
“We'd see about 10%.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 4:43
Disclosure
Ledgard: SEO from blog content is KickOffLabs' biggest customer draw
“One is the one is promoting content that we do, which has actually just been our biggest draw is just the SEO of the content we produce on the, on, on the blog and the website.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 6:07
Disclosure
Ledgard: KickOffLabs spends $800 to $1,000 monthly per marketing channel
“Blog content and promotion, we'll probably spend, you know we'll probably spend about anywhere between 800 to a thousand dollars a month on that. And then AdWords and direct ads are probably spend about the same there. So we spend about the same on each one.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 6:49
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Ledgard: KickOffLabs averages 1,000 active paying customers per month
“We average around about a thousand active paying customers a month.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 9:48
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Ledgard: KickOffLabs generated roughly $680,000 in revenue in 2015
“And then and then in 2015 I'm gonna say if I look at the number, it's like 60, or sorry 680,000 around there.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 11:47
Disclosure
Ledgard targets 20% to 30% annual revenue growth for KickOffLabs
“Adding 30% to the to the six, six 80 number. So I'm going for 20 to 30% growth each year.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 12:14
Disclosure
Ledgard: KickOffLabs cuts calculated LTV by 40% to model worst-case economics
“I tend to pretend when we're doing any of those calculations that our customer lifetime value, I tend to shave like. 40% off of that. And I assume that like the worst case scenario of a customer is worth, you know, 450 dollars or something.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 12:50
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Ledgard: Paid channels drive only about 10% of KickOffLabs' customer acquisition
“Paid acquisition, which is probably more like You know, 10% of our acquisition”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 13:35
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Ledgard: KickOffLabs' fully weighted CAC is between $400 and $450
“I mean that if I'm doing that, it comes out to closer to like 400 or four 50.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 14:09
Insight
Ledgard: Building a cash business requires the same tactics as selling
“Because if I want to build a cash business that we build families on, the business has to become, you know, more self-sustainable. Without us in the business, we have to hire more senior people into the company to take on some of the stuff that Scott and I are…”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 15:39
Disclosure
Ledgard: KickOffLabs exit requires $3M-$4M personal payout
“For me to take home as a range personally, like my share of it would have to be to, for me to say yes, my share of it personally would probably have to be closer to like three or four.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 16:37
Disclosure
Ledgard: I own 50% of KickOffLabs
“I own half the company.”
Josh Ledgard Sep 29, 2016 ▶ 16:49
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