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Sep 26, 2017 · 21m · top-founders

794: SaaS: How He Used Pizza to Hit $7.5m in ARR and $18m Raised for his Lead Scoring Tool

Nathan Latka · 10m spoken Evan Liang · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this interview, LeanData co-founder and CEO Evan Liang discusses scaling his enterprise lead routing and attribution platform to $7.5 million in ARR, sharing insights on unit economics, unique customer acquisition tactics, and the technical advantages of building natively on Salesforce.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 55.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 3.7 Guest teaching 1.7 Guest disagreement 0.1 Nathan pushing back 1.4
05100:0010:0020:002:03–5:29 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Evan Liang's Professional Background and Career History Nathan introduces Evan's background and methodically drills down into LeanData's core product functionality, customer pricing tiers, and expansion ARPU. Evan readily explains their lead routing versus scoring mechanics in a collaborative tone.5:31–9:08 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Founding Origins and Seed Funding Experience Evan discusses founding LeanData out of data issues at caring.com and raising a priced seed round from VC peers. Nathan probes into the mechanics of setting a priced valuation before writing any code.9:08–12:00 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Operational Scale, Team Structure, and Revenue Benchmarks Nathan computes MRR and ARR figures on the fly from customer counts and ACV data. Evan entertains Nathan with the operational challenges of their experimental pizza-delivery marketing tactic.12:00–15:24 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Event Marketing, Retention Metrics, and Unit Economics Nathan explores unit economics, paid marketing tests, and churn dynamics. Both bond over SaaS modeling nuances, specifically the necessity of capping customer lifetime value at five years rather than trusting infinite spreadsheet curves.15:25–17:44 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Competitive Landscape and Native Salesforce Advantage Evan educates Nathan on how native Salesforce app architecture eliminates hosting and computing overhead from gross margins. Nathan pushes back by challenging whether reliance on Salesforce creates severe exit constraints.17:46–20:22 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 HostGator Sponsorship Segment Following a brief sponsor read, Nathan runs Evan through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite CEO coaches, tools, and sleep habits in a relaxed manner.20:22–21:15 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Episode Summary and Next Episode Preview Nathan delivers a closing solo summary recapping LeanData's core operating metrics and teases the upcoming episode.2:03–5:29 · Guest teaching 2/10 Evan Liang's Professional Background and Career History Nathan introduces Evan's background and methodically drills down into LeanData's core product functionality, customer pricing tiers, and expansion ARPU. Evan readily explains their lead routing versus scoring mechanics in a collaborative tone.5:31–9:08 · Guest teaching 2/10 Founding Origins and Seed Funding Experience Evan discusses founding LeanData out of data issues at caring.com and raising a priced seed round from VC peers. Nathan probes into the mechanics of setting a priced valuation before writing any code.9:08–12:00 · Guest teaching 1/10 Operational Scale, Team Structure, and Revenue Benchmarks Nathan computes MRR and ARR figures on the fly from customer counts and ACV data. Evan entertains Nathan with the operational challenges of their experimental pizza-delivery marketing tactic.12:00–15:24 · Guest teaching 2/10 Event Marketing, Retention Metrics, and Unit Economics Nathan explores unit economics, paid marketing tests, and churn dynamics. Both bond over SaaS modeling nuances, specifically the necessity of capping customer lifetime value at five years rather than trusting infinite spreadsheet curves.15:25–17:44 · Guest teaching 4/10 Competitive Landscape and Native Salesforce Advantage Evan educates Nathan on how native Salesforce app architecture eliminates hosting and computing overhead from gross margins. Nathan pushes back by challenging whether reliance on Salesforce creates severe exit constraints.17:46–20:22 · Guest teaching 1/10 HostGator Sponsorship Segment Following a brief sponsor read, Nathan runs Evan through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite CEO coaches, tools, and sleep habits in a relaxed manner.20:22–21:15 · Guest teaching 0/10 Episode Summary and Next Episode Preview Nathan delivers a closing solo summary recapping LeanData's core operating metrics and teases the upcoming episode.2:03–5:29 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Evan Liang's Professional Background and Career History Nathan introduces Evan's background and methodically drills down into LeanData's core product functionality, customer pricing tiers, and expansion ARPU. Evan readily explains their lead routing versus scoring mechanics in a collaborative tone.5:31–9:08 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Founding Origins and Seed Funding Experience Evan discusses founding LeanData out of data issues at caring.com and raising a priced seed round from VC peers. Nathan probes into the mechanics of setting a priced valuation before writing any code.9:08–12:00 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Operational Scale, Team Structure, and Revenue Benchmarks Nathan computes MRR and ARR figures on the fly from customer counts and ACV data. Evan entertains Nathan with the operational challenges of their experimental pizza-delivery marketing tactic.12:00–15:24 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Event Marketing, Retention Metrics, and Unit Economics Nathan explores unit economics, paid marketing tests, and churn dynamics. Both bond over SaaS modeling nuances, specifically the necessity of capping customer lifetime value at five years rather than trusting infinite spreadsheet curves.15:25–17:44 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Competitive Landscape and Native Salesforce Advantage Evan educates Nathan on how native Salesforce app architecture eliminates hosting and computing overhead from gross margins. Nathan pushes back by challenging whether reliance on Salesforce creates severe exit constraints.17:46–20:22 · Guest disagreement 0/10 HostGator Sponsorship Segment Following a brief sponsor read, Nathan runs Evan through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite CEO coaches, tools, and sleep habits in a relaxed manner.20:22–21:15 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Episode Summary and Next Episode Preview Nathan delivers a closing solo summary recapping LeanData's core operating metrics and teases the upcoming episode.2:03–5:29 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Evan Liang's Professional Background and Career History Nathan introduces Evan's background and methodically drills down into LeanData's core product functionality, customer pricing tiers, and expansion ARPU. Evan readily explains their lead routing versus scoring mechanics in a collaborative tone.5:31–9:08 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Founding Origins and Seed Funding Experience Evan discusses founding LeanData out of data issues at caring.com and raising a priced seed round from VC peers. Nathan probes into the mechanics of setting a priced valuation before writing any code.9:08–12:00 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Operational Scale, Team Structure, and Revenue Benchmarks Nathan computes MRR and ARR figures on the fly from customer counts and ACV data. Evan entertains Nathan with the operational challenges of their experimental pizza-delivery marketing tactic.12:00–15:24 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Event Marketing, Retention Metrics, and Unit Economics Nathan explores unit economics, paid marketing tests, and churn dynamics. Both bond over SaaS modeling nuances, specifically the necessity of capping customer lifetime value at five years rather than trusting infinite spreadsheet curves.15:25–17:44 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Competitive Landscape and Native Salesforce Advantage Evan educates Nathan on how native Salesforce app architecture eliminates hosting and computing overhead from gross margins. Nathan pushes back by challenging whether reliance on Salesforce creates severe exit constraints.17:46–20:22 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 HostGator Sponsorship Segment Following a brief sponsor read, Nathan runs Evan through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite CEO coaches, tools, and sleep habits in a relaxed manner.20:22–21:15 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Episode Summary and Next Episode Preview Nathan delivers a closing solo summary recapping LeanData's core operating metrics and teases the upcoming episode.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 98.1% · guest 1.9%0:00 · Nathan 98.1% · guest 1.9%3:00 · Nathan 41.4% · guest 58.6%3:00 · Nathan 41.4% · guest 58.6%6:00 · Nathan 39% · guest 61%6:00 · Nathan 39% · guest 61%9:00 · Nathan 51.9% · guest 48.1%9:00 · Nathan 51.9% · guest 48.1%12:00 · Nathan 40.3% · guest 59.7%12:00 · Nathan 40.3% · guest 59.7%15:00 · Nathan 47% · guest 53%15:00 · Nathan 47% · guest 53%18:00 · Nathan 61.4% · guest 38.6%18:00 · Nathan 61.4% · guest 38.6%21:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%21:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 16:37 Evan gently reframes AppExchange value proposition

Evan refutes Nathan's assumption that the Salesforce AppExchange drives lead growth, clarifying that its real value is structural infrastructure savings.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 17:22 Nathan presses on acquisition and exit vulnerability

Nathan directly challenges Evan's VC rationale by questioning how any company besides Salesforce could realistically acquire a platform built entirely on Salesforce.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:45 Evan explains native infrastructure cost advantages

Evan explains to Nathan why LeanData incurs no hosting or computing bandwidth costs because client infrastructure fees on Salesforce absorb the entire back-end load.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 14:59 Nathan validates practical LTV forecasting discipline

Nathan demonstrates strong SaaS financial acumen by validating why low churn rates create unrealistically inflated LTV models in spreadsheets unless capped at five years.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Evan Liang's Professional Background and Career History 4201 Nathan introduces Evan's background and methodically drills down into LeanData's core product functionality, customer pricing tiers, and expansion ARPU. Evan readily explains their lead routing versus scoring mechanics in a collaborative tone.
Founding Origins and Seed Funding Experience 4202 Evan discusses founding LeanData out of data issues at caring.com and raising a priced seed round from VC peers. Nathan probes into the mechanics of setting a priced valuation before writing any code.
Operational Scale, Team Structure, and Revenue Benchmarks 5101 Nathan computes MRR and ARR figures on the fly from customer counts and ACV data. Evan entertains Nathan with the operational challenges of their experimental pizza-delivery marketing tactic.
Event Marketing, Retention Metrics, and Unit Economics 6202 Nathan explores unit economics, paid marketing tests, and churn dynamics. Both bond over SaaS modeling nuances, specifically the necessity of capping customer lifetime value at five years rather than trusting infinite spreadsheet curves.
Competitive Landscape and Native Salesforce Advantage 5413 Evan educates Nathan on how native Salesforce app architecture eliminates hosting and computing overhead from gross margins. Nathan pushes back by challenging whether reliance on Salesforce creates severe exit constraints.
HostGator Sponsorship Segment 2101 Following a brief sponsor read, Nathan runs Evan through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions covering favorite CEO coaches, tools, and sleep habits in a relaxed manner.
Episode Summary and Next Episode Preview 0000 Nathan delivers a closing solo summary recapping LeanData's core operating metrics and teases the upcoming episode.

Statements from this episode (11)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Liang: LeanData's average ACV is $20,000 to $30,000 per year
“So, I mean, it's typically SaaS. I mean, on average, it's probably 20, 30,000 dollars a year. But we have large enterprises that are six figures, and we have some SMBs that are a little bit smaller than that.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 4:38
Assertion Supported
Liang Raised a $1.3M Seed Round Pre-Product With Just a PowerPoint
“We went on day one, two guys in a PowerPoint. We were able to raise a seed round for about 1.3 million dollars. So we were funded before before we ever wrote a line of code.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 8:05
Assertion Partly supported
Liang: LeanData Has Raised Around $18 Million in Total Funding
“Total funded today is around eighteen million dollars.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 8:19
Assertion Supported
LeanData Structured Its Initial Seed as a Priced Equity Round
“Actually, we made our series seed our original seed round was a price round as well.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 8:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Liang: LeanData has about 250 enterprise customers
“About 250 enterprise customers today.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 9:49
Assertion Not checkable as stated
LeanData Closed Sales via Pizza Delivery Demos, But It Didn't Scale
“We did, but it was not a scalable model.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 11:56
Assertion Not checkable as stated
LeanData Spent $600,000 on Event Marketing Over 12 Months
“Conferencing strategy will probably have spent like 600,000 dollars.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 13:03
Assertion Not checkable as stated
LeanData experiences 10% to 15% annual logo churn
“Local churn annually is probably kind of in the kind of 10, I mean, 15% a year range, primarily on the mid-market and S&P side.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 14:05
Insight
Liang: SaaS LTV Models Should Cap Expected Customer Lifespan at Five Years
“If you look at our turnovers and stuff like that, you, you're, your number of years is quite high. So we try to cap it like five years.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 14:50
Opinion
LeanData's Primary Competition Is Internal Teams Building Custom Solutions
“I mean, our number one competition really is people building yourselves, right?”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 15:33
Assertion Not checkable as stated
LeanData Has Zero Hosting Costs by Running Natively Inside Salesforce
“I have no hosting bandwidth storage costs because I am an app that natively Salesforce, the customers have already paid for that.”
Evan Liang Sep 26, 2017 ▶ 16:51
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