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Oct 7, 2017 · 21m · top-founders

805: SaaS: 30,000 Customers Make Him King of Call Tracking and Attribution

Todd Fisher · 10m spoken Nathan Latka · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Nathan Latka interviews Todd Fisher, co-founder and CEO of Call Tracking Metrics, discussing how he bootstrapped an attribution software platform to over 30,000 customers and $1.2 million in monthly recurring revenue. The conversation covers Fisher's engineering background, dynamic call tracking mechanics, customer acquisition economics, and his operational partnership with his wife, Lori.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 43.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.5 Guest teaching 1.3 Guest disagreement 1.0 Nathan pushing back 2.8
05100:0010:0020:001:29–5:55 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Introducing Todd Fisher and Call Tracking Metrics Nathan opens the interview by clarifying Todd's 30,000 customer metric and demonstrating knowledge of land-and-expand credit card dynamics. Todd is polite, cooperative, and explains the founding narrative and product attribution model clearly.5:56–9:03 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Early Growth Milestones and AdWords Experiments Todd recounts the company's early customer acquisition experiments via Google AdWords. Nathan probes into early acquisition tactics with light, collaborative follow-ups.9:03–16:17 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Financial Metrics, Pricing Tiers, and Team Structure Todd is candid about not knowing standard SaaS acronyms like CAC and MRR. Nathan exercises strong financial expertise by doing real-time math, reconciling Todd's pricing tiers and agency cohorts with their actual $1.2M MRR.16:17–21:14 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Sponsor Announcement: Acquisition of The Top Inbox Following an ad read for The Top Inbox, Nathan runs through the Famous Five. Todd shares colorful open-source and career advice, and Nathan wraps up by analyzing the company's ad-spend-to-revenue ratio.1:29–5:55 · Guest teaching 1/10 Introducing Todd Fisher and Call Tracking Metrics Nathan opens the interview by clarifying Todd's 30,000 customer metric and demonstrating knowledge of land-and-expand credit card dynamics. Todd is polite, cooperative, and explains the founding narrative and product attribution model clearly.5:56–9:03 · Guest teaching 1/10 Early Growth Milestones and AdWords Experiments Todd recounts the company's early customer acquisition experiments via Google AdWords. Nathan probes into early acquisition tactics with light, collaborative follow-ups.9:03–16:17 · Guest teaching 1/10 Financial Metrics, Pricing Tiers, and Team Structure Todd is candid about not knowing standard SaaS acronyms like CAC and MRR. Nathan exercises strong financial expertise by doing real-time math, reconciling Todd's pricing tiers and agency cohorts with their actual $1.2M MRR.16:17–21:14 · Guest teaching 2/10 Sponsor Announcement: Acquisition of The Top Inbox Following an ad read for The Top Inbox, Nathan runs through the Famous Five. Todd shares colorful open-source and career advice, and Nathan wraps up by analyzing the company's ad-spend-to-revenue ratio.1:29–5:55 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Introducing Todd Fisher and Call Tracking Metrics Nathan opens the interview by clarifying Todd's 30,000 customer metric and demonstrating knowledge of land-and-expand credit card dynamics. Todd is polite, cooperative, and explains the founding narrative and product attribution model clearly.5:56–9:03 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Early Growth Milestones and AdWords Experiments Todd recounts the company's early customer acquisition experiments via Google AdWords. Nathan probes into early acquisition tactics with light, collaborative follow-ups.9:03–16:17 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Financial Metrics, Pricing Tiers, and Team Structure Todd is candid about not knowing standard SaaS acronyms like CAC and MRR. Nathan exercises strong financial expertise by doing real-time math, reconciling Todd's pricing tiers and agency cohorts with their actual $1.2M MRR.16:17–21:14 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sponsor Announcement: Acquisition of The Top Inbox Following an ad read for The Top Inbox, Nathan runs through the Famous Five. Todd shares colorful open-source and career advice, and Nathan wraps up by analyzing the company's ad-spend-to-revenue ratio.1:29–5:55 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Introducing Todd Fisher and Call Tracking Metrics Nathan opens the interview by clarifying Todd's 30,000 customer metric and demonstrating knowledge of land-and-expand credit card dynamics. Todd is polite, cooperative, and explains the founding narrative and product attribution model clearly.5:56–9:03 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Early Growth Milestones and AdWords Experiments Todd recounts the company's early customer acquisition experiments via Google AdWords. Nathan probes into early acquisition tactics with light, collaborative follow-ups.9:03–16:17 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Financial Metrics, Pricing Tiers, and Team Structure Todd is candid about not knowing standard SaaS acronyms like CAC and MRR. Nathan exercises strong financial expertise by doing real-time math, reconciling Todd's pricing tiers and agency cohorts with their actual $1.2M MRR.16:17–21:14 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Sponsor Announcement: Acquisition of The Top Inbox Following an ad read for The Top Inbox, Nathan runs through the Famous Five. Todd shares colorful open-source and career advice, and Nathan wraps up by analyzing the company's ad-spend-to-revenue ratio.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 81.2% · guest 18.8%0:00 · Nathan 81.2% · guest 18.8%3:00 · Nathan 20.9% · guest 79.1%3:00 · Nathan 20.9% · guest 79.1%6:00 · Nathan 10.3% · guest 89.7%6:00 · Nathan 10.3% · guest 89.7%9:00 · Nathan 35.9% · guest 64.1%9:00 · Nathan 35.9% · guest 64.1%12:00 · Nathan 50.3% · guest 49.7%12:00 · Nathan 50.3% · guest 49.7%15:00 · Nathan 67.6% · guest 32.4%15:00 · Nathan 67.6% · guest 32.4%18:00 · Nathan 33.4% · guest 66.6%18:00 · Nathan 33.4% · guest 66.6%21:00 · Nathan 87.9% · guest 12.1%21:00 · Nathan 87.9% · guest 12.1%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 19:18 Todd dismisses academic computer science dogma

Todd vigorously vents about wasting time in C++ and academic computer science rather than building practical web tools that help people.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 11:51 Nathan rejects $60M revenue implied by quoted pricing

Nathan interrupts Todd's average pricing statement to point out that multiplying 30,000 customers by $2,000 per month would mean $60M MRR, forcing a breakdown of plans.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 18:09 Todd explains HurlIt and Ruby libcurl implementation

Todd educates Nathan on open source HTTP testing tooling and his own Ruby libcurl implementation project Curb.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 13:26 Nathan reconciles agency cohorts against $1.2M MRR

Nathan walks through the math live, calculating agency percentages and revenue contributions to resolve Todd's high agency revenue figures down to their real $1.2M monthly total.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Todd Fisher and Call Tracking Metrics 4112 Nathan opens the interview by clarifying Todd's 30,000 customer metric and demonstrating knowledge of land-and-expand credit card dynamics. Todd is polite, cooperative, and explains the founding narrative and product attribution model clearly.
Early Growth Milestones and AdWords Experiments 3112 Todd recounts the company's early customer acquisition experiments via Google AdWords. Nathan probes into early acquisition tactics with light, collaborative follow-ups.
Financial Metrics, Pricing Tiers, and Team Structure 7115 Todd is candid about not knowing standard SaaS acronyms like CAC and MRR. Nathan exercises strong financial expertise by doing real-time math, reconciling Todd's pricing tiers and agency cohorts with their actual $1.2M MRR.
Sponsor Announcement: Acquisition of The Top Inbox 4212 Following an ad read for The Top Inbox, Nathan runs through the Famous Five. Todd shares colorful open-source and career advice, and Nathan wraps up by analyzing the company's ad-spend-to-revenue ratio.

Statements from this episode (8)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fisher: Call Tracking Metrics scaled from 1,700 customers in 2012 to over 30,000
“In terms of customer base, 2012, we had around 1700 customers. Which by 2013, we had over doubled that to 5000 almost 6000, and then onwards, and by end of 20 16, we were up to 22,000, and now, like you said, we're approaching, or just passing 30,000, so yeah.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 6:24
Disclosure
Fisher: Call Tracking Metrics CAC ranges from $60 to $600
“I want to say around 60 bucks maybe to 600 bucks. It depends on the customer. So we go for enterprise customers. Yeah, it's way more expensive because enterprise customers can take six to nine months to acquire.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 10:47
Insight
Fisher: Call tracking software should cost under 10% of ad spend
“I've always felt that they shouldn't be spending more than maybe 10% of that advertising budget on call tracking. Call tracking should really be a enhancer, right? So hopefully that's gaining 10 to 20% efficiencies in their advertising campaigns.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 11:29
Disclosure
Fisher: Low-tier SaaS customers consume 80% of support time
“The more valuable customers are about 20% and they consume about 20% of the time. And the less expensive customers, which are about 80% of us use 80% of our time.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 12:54
Disclosure
Fisher: Call Tracking Metrics generates $1.2M in monthly recurring revenue
“Actually it's 1.2.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 14:15
Disclosure
Fisher: Call Tracking Metrics sees roughly 6% monthly customer churn
“I think monthly, but so it would be if somebody signed up in April maybe they would not be a customer. Six percent of those signups in April may not be customers in May.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 15:26
Disclosure
Fisher: Call Tracking Metrics employs 23 people, majority in support
“Three, three sales team members, so three people on team are sales. Two are marketing. Most are support and then four and five engineers.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 15:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fisher estimates Call Tracking Metrics spends ~40% of revenue on paid ads
“I think it's probably closer to 40%. Maybe my numbers are exaggerating.”
Todd Fisher Oct 7, 2017 ▶ 20:45
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