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Dec 1, 2017 · 15m · top-founders

860 10% Churn: When SaaS Pricing Gets Attached to Campaign Driven Product

Rod Fuentes · 7m spoken Nathan Latka · 5m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top Entrepreneurs, host Nathan Latka interviews ListenLoop co-founder and CEO Rod Fuentes about scaling an account-based marketing advertising platform to over $65,000 in MRR while navigating monthly churn dynamics and pricing model challenges.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 43.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.4 Nathan pushing back 3.6
05100:0010:001:36–5:26 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Overview of ListenLoop and Pricing Model Nathan guides the conversation through ListenLoop's origin, pricing tiers, and pivot from in-app feedback to ABM advertising. He probes into their average contract value to establish true revenue dynamics.5:27–7:35 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Revenue Scale and Customer Acquisition Tactics Nathan quickly calculates the company's estimated monthly run rate and presses on specific customer acquisition costs, drilling past CPL and cost-per-demo down to CAC.7:39–11:18 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Sponsor Feature: Website Analytics with Hotjar Following an ad read, Nathan challenges Rod over ListenLoop's alarming 10% monthly churn rate. Rod explains his tactical philosophy of keeping contracts month-to-month specifically to maximize early product feedback.11:19–13:58 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Pricing Architecture and Product Fit Debate Nathan offers strong pushback using Infusionsoft's setup fee case study to argue that pricing structure drives retention, questioning why ListenLoop is even sold on a recurring SaaS model if usage is campaign-based.14:01–15:03 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Famous Five and Episode Conclusion Standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and concluding summary with full rapport between host and guest.1:36–5:26 · Guest teaching 3/10 Overview of ListenLoop and Pricing Model Nathan guides the conversation through ListenLoop's origin, pricing tiers, and pivot from in-app feedback to ABM advertising. He probes into their average contract value to establish true revenue dynamics.5:27–7:35 · Guest teaching 2/10 Revenue Scale and Customer Acquisition Tactics Nathan quickly calculates the company's estimated monthly run rate and presses on specific customer acquisition costs, drilling past CPL and cost-per-demo down to CAC.7:39–11:18 · Guest teaching 5/10 Sponsor Feature: Website Analytics with Hotjar Following an ad read, Nathan challenges Rod over ListenLoop's alarming 10% monthly churn rate. Rod explains his tactical philosophy of keeping contracts month-to-month specifically to maximize early product feedback.11:19–13:58 · Guest teaching 4/10 Pricing Architecture and Product Fit Debate Nathan offers strong pushback using Infusionsoft's setup fee case study to argue that pricing structure drives retention, questioning why ListenLoop is even sold on a recurring SaaS model if usage is campaign-based.14:01–15:03 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five and Episode Conclusion Standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and concluding summary with full rapport between host and guest.1:36–5:26 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Overview of ListenLoop and Pricing Model Nathan guides the conversation through ListenLoop's origin, pricing tiers, and pivot from in-app feedback to ABM advertising. He probes into their average contract value to establish true revenue dynamics.5:27–7:35 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Revenue Scale and Customer Acquisition Tactics Nathan quickly calculates the company's estimated monthly run rate and presses on specific customer acquisition costs, drilling past CPL and cost-per-demo down to CAC.7:39–11:18 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sponsor Feature: Website Analytics with Hotjar Following an ad read, Nathan challenges Rod over ListenLoop's alarming 10% monthly churn rate. Rod explains his tactical philosophy of keeping contracts month-to-month specifically to maximize early product feedback.11:19–13:58 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Pricing Architecture and Product Fit Debate Nathan offers strong pushback using Infusionsoft's setup fee case study to argue that pricing structure drives retention, questioning why ListenLoop is even sold on a recurring SaaS model if usage is campaign-based.14:01–15:03 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Famous Five and Episode Conclusion Standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and concluding summary with full rapport between host and guest.1:36–5:26 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Overview of ListenLoop and Pricing Model Nathan guides the conversation through ListenLoop's origin, pricing tiers, and pivot from in-app feedback to ABM advertising. He probes into their average contract value to establish true revenue dynamics.5:27–7:35 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Revenue Scale and Customer Acquisition Tactics Nathan quickly calculates the company's estimated monthly run rate and presses on specific customer acquisition costs, drilling past CPL and cost-per-demo down to CAC.7:39–11:18 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Sponsor Feature: Website Analytics with Hotjar Following an ad read, Nathan challenges Rod over ListenLoop's alarming 10% monthly churn rate. Rod explains his tactical philosophy of keeping contracts month-to-month specifically to maximize early product feedback.11:19–13:58 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Pricing Architecture and Product Fit Debate Nathan offers strong pushback using Infusionsoft's setup fee case study to argue that pricing structure drives retention, questioning why ListenLoop is even sold on a recurring SaaS model if usage is campaign-based.14:01–15:03 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 The Famous Five and Episode Conclusion Standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and concluding summary with full rapport between host and guest.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 68.1% · guest 31.9%0:00 · Nathan 68.1% · guest 31.9%3:00 · Nathan 19.1% · guest 80.9%3:00 · Nathan 19.1% · guest 80.9%6:00 · Nathan 51.3% · guest 48.7%6:00 · Nathan 51.3% · guest 48.7%9:00 · Nathan 31% · guest 69%9:00 · Nathan 31% · guest 69%12:00 · Nathan 46.9% · guest 53.1%12:00 · Nathan 46.9% · guest 53.1%15:00 · Nathan 62.7% · guest 37.3%15:00 · Nathan 62.7% · guest 37.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 11:51 Rod rejects Infusionsoft analogy

Rod pushes back on Nathan's Infusionsoft comparison, arguing that marketing automation complexity does not apply to a self-serve 5-minute campaign setup tool.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 12:19 Nathan questions SaaS model fit

Nathan directly challenges ListenLoop's fundamental business model, asking why they charge SaaS subscriptions when customer usage is intermittent and campaign-driven.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 10:00 Contract length as a feedback tool

Rod educates Nathan on why avoiding annual lock-ins early on forces rapid, honest product feedback from departing customers rather than delayed polite exits.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 11:18 Nathan demonstrates pricing expertise

Nathan cites Clay Mask from Infusionsoft's experience of adding a setup fee to lower churn from 8% to 2%, demonstrating concrete industry benchmark knowledge.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Overview of ListenLoop and Pricing Model 4313 Nathan guides the conversation through ListenLoop's origin, pricing tiers, and pivot from in-app feedback to ABM advertising. He probes into their average contract value to establish true revenue dynamics.
Revenue Scale and Customer Acquisition Tactics 5212 Nathan quickly calculates the company's estimated monthly run rate and presses on specific customer acquisition costs, drilling past CPL and cost-per-demo down to CAC.
Sponsor Feature: Website Analytics with Hotjar 5526 Following an ad read, Nathan challenges Rod over ListenLoop's alarming 10% monthly churn rate. Rod explains his tactical philosophy of keeping contracts month-to-month specifically to maximize early product feedback.
Pricing Architecture and Product Fit Debate 7437 Nathan offers strong pushback using Infusionsoft's setup fee case study to argue that pricing structure drives retention, questioning why ListenLoop is even sold on a recurring SaaS model if usage is campaign-based.
The Famous Five and Episode Conclusion 3100 Standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and concluding summary with full rapport between host and guest.

Statements from this episode (11)

Disclosure
ListenLoop charges from $99/month up to Fortune 100 tiers
“So we make money by selling software access to this platform. And you know, we started at 99 dollars a month, so very SAS friendly, very S&B friendly, all the way to large corporate, you know, Fortune 100 companies.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 2:30
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fuentes: ListenLoop's 80% long-tail clients start around $400/month
“Probably on average, we probably get clients who, you know, the 80% long tail is maybe 400 dollars a month in terms of where they're starting off.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 3:07
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fuentes: ListenLoop serves about 160 customers
“About a 160 something at this point.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 4:53
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fuentes: ListenLoop raised $2M total and achieved cash-flow positivity
“So we raised capital in 2015 was our last raise, a total of two million up to that point. And you know, it was a seed round and we've been pretty much cashflow positive for the last year.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 5:08
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fuentes: ListenLoop generates between $65K and $130K in MRR
“No, that's accurate, but over. Between that and double.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 6:04
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fuentes: Face-matched personalized banner ads generate 30x average CTR
“I can do an ad that, you know, shows my face and your face together in an ad just for you that follows you around the web. And man, that gets some attention, you know, like, thirty-time average click-through rates, and because we sell to marketers touting this…”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 6:17
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fuentes: ListenLoop's customer acquisition cost is around $700
“Oh, cost per customer probably comes in at around 700 dollars, I think, to actually close it out.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 7:11
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fuentes: ListenLoop experiences roughly 10% monthly gross churn
“Gross churn, I'd say, is probably about, like, 10% or so on a month-to-month product.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 8:46
Insight
Fuentes: Annual SaaS contracts trade product feedback for upfront financing
“The length of your SaaS contract is a tool that you should use. It's a tool either for financing, in which case you should use annual contracts, get money up front, and you could use that for growth, right? However, the penalty you pay for using the tool on th…”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 10:25
Assertion Open · timeframe Dec 2017
Latka: Infusionsoft cut monthly churn from 8% to 2% with $2,000 fee
“Clay is like, he realized once he put a 2000 dollar setup fee on his retention, like went from eight was turned went from eight percent monthly down to like two percent monthly.”
Nathan Latka Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 11:39
Disclosure
Fuentes: ListenLoop has six full-time employees and is engineering-heavy
“So we're six full times. It's very engineering heavy at this point. And we just started hiring. We just brought on another UX UI person and someone to help me out with support and sales and marketing.”
Rod Fuentes Dec 1, 2017 ▶ 13:47
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