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Apr 29, 2019 · 21m · top-founders

1374 Your Dish Network Repair Man Probably Uses This $1m+ ARR Tool For Communication

Stacy Epstein · 13m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this interview, Zinc CEO Stacy Epstein explains how she restructured the company into a high-growth enterprise communication platform designed specifically for deskless workers. She discusses Zinc's $16 million in venture backing, rapid customer adoption at enterprises like Dish Network, and scaling past $1 million in ARR with 117% net retention.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 32.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.1 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.6 Nathan pushing back 3.0
05100:0010:0020:000:57–3:52 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Zinc's Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Model Nathan asks straightforward questions about Zinc's pricing mechanics and user seat metrics. Stacy clearly articulates the deskless worker problem and explains their enterprise SaaS pricing model.3:52–5:56 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Origins from Kotap and the Rebranding of Zinc Nathan probes Stacy's CEO vs. founder title and attempts to unpack the Kotap asset spinout. Stacy corrects his terminology regarding taking companies private versus recapitalizing a startup.5:56–8:06 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Venture Capital Funding and Investor Support Nathan names Emergence Capital partners like Santi to demonstrate VC domain knowledge. Stacy elaborates on their $16M raised across Emergence, CRV, and GE Ventures.8:06–11:02 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Customer Adoption and Phasing Out Freemium Stacy explains why the freemium model failed for deskless enterprise workers and details their shift to enterprise trials. Nathan prompts for logo count and seat totals.11:02–14:23 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Sales Team Operations and Market Dynamics Nathan questions SDR-to-AE ratios and challenges whether try-before-you-buy models inflate CAC. Stacy explains that Zinc is standard across verticals unlike complex ERP solutions.14:23–16:26 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Risk Management, Sales Experiments, and Payback Cycles Nathan pitches a hypothetical high-cost acquisition scenario to test Stacy's decision framework. Stacy rejects the high CAC premise, leading Nathan to synthesize her logic into payback period thresholds.16:27–20:26 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Revenue Metrics, ARR Targets, and Churn Performance Nathan calculates ARR from customer count and minimum contract sizes, and drills down on churn metrics to clarify net negative churn versus net revenue retention.0:57–3:52 · Guest teaching 3/10 Zinc's Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Model Nathan asks straightforward questions about Zinc's pricing mechanics and user seat metrics. Stacy clearly articulates the deskless worker problem and explains their enterprise SaaS pricing model.3:52–5:56 · Guest teaching 4/10 Origins from Kotap and the Rebranding of Zinc Nathan probes Stacy's CEO vs. founder title and attempts to unpack the Kotap asset spinout. Stacy corrects his terminology regarding taking companies private versus recapitalizing a startup.5:56–8:06 · Guest teaching 2/10 Venture Capital Funding and Investor Support Nathan names Emergence Capital partners like Santi to demonstrate VC domain knowledge. Stacy elaborates on their $16M raised across Emergence, CRV, and GE Ventures.8:06–11:02 · Guest teaching 4/10 Customer Adoption and Phasing Out Freemium Stacy explains why the freemium model failed for deskless enterprise workers and details their shift to enterprise trials. Nathan prompts for logo count and seat totals.11:02–14:23 · Guest teaching 3/10 Sales Team Operations and Market Dynamics Nathan questions SDR-to-AE ratios and challenges whether try-before-you-buy models inflate CAC. Stacy explains that Zinc is standard across verticals unlike complex ERP solutions.14:23–16:26 · Guest teaching 3/10 Risk Management, Sales Experiments, and Payback Cycles Nathan pitches a hypothetical high-cost acquisition scenario to test Stacy's decision framework. Stacy rejects the high CAC premise, leading Nathan to synthesize her logic into payback period thresholds.16:27–20:26 · Guest teaching 2/10 Revenue Metrics, ARR Targets, and Churn Performance Nathan calculates ARR from customer count and minimum contract sizes, and drills down on churn metrics to clarify net negative churn versus net revenue retention.0:57–3:52 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Zinc's Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Model Nathan asks straightforward questions about Zinc's pricing mechanics and user seat metrics. Stacy clearly articulates the deskless worker problem and explains their enterprise SaaS pricing model.3:52–5:56 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Origins from Kotap and the Rebranding of Zinc Nathan probes Stacy's CEO vs. founder title and attempts to unpack the Kotap asset spinout. Stacy corrects his terminology regarding taking companies private versus recapitalizing a startup.5:56–8:06 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Venture Capital Funding and Investor Support Nathan names Emergence Capital partners like Santi to demonstrate VC domain knowledge. Stacy elaborates on their $16M raised across Emergence, CRV, and GE Ventures.8:06–11:02 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Customer Adoption and Phasing Out Freemium Stacy explains why the freemium model failed for deskless enterprise workers and details their shift to enterprise trials. Nathan prompts for logo count and seat totals.11:02–14:23 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sales Team Operations and Market Dynamics Nathan questions SDR-to-AE ratios and challenges whether try-before-you-buy models inflate CAC. Stacy explains that Zinc is standard across verticals unlike complex ERP solutions.14:23–16:26 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Risk Management, Sales Experiments, and Payback Cycles Nathan pitches a hypothetical high-cost acquisition scenario to test Stacy's decision framework. Stacy rejects the high CAC premise, leading Nathan to synthesize her logic into payback period thresholds.16:27–20:26 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Revenue Metrics, ARR Targets, and Churn Performance Nathan calculates ARR from customer count and minimum contract sizes, and drills down on churn metrics to clarify net negative churn versus net revenue retention.0:57–3:52 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Zinc's Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Model Nathan asks straightforward questions about Zinc's pricing mechanics and user seat metrics. Stacy clearly articulates the deskless worker problem and explains their enterprise SaaS pricing model.3:52–5:56 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Origins from Kotap and the Rebranding of Zinc Nathan probes Stacy's CEO vs. founder title and attempts to unpack the Kotap asset spinout. Stacy corrects his terminology regarding taking companies private versus recapitalizing a startup.5:56–8:06 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Venture Capital Funding and Investor Support Nathan names Emergence Capital partners like Santi to demonstrate VC domain knowledge. Stacy elaborates on their $16M raised across Emergence, CRV, and GE Ventures.8:06–11:02 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Customer Adoption and Phasing Out Freemium Stacy explains why the freemium model failed for deskless enterprise workers and details their shift to enterprise trials. Nathan prompts for logo count and seat totals.11:02–14:23 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Sales Team Operations and Market Dynamics Nathan questions SDR-to-AE ratios and challenges whether try-before-you-buy models inflate CAC. Stacy explains that Zinc is standard across verticals unlike complex ERP solutions.14:23–16:26 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Risk Management, Sales Experiments, and Payback Cycles Nathan pitches a hypothetical high-cost acquisition scenario to test Stacy's decision framework. Stacy rejects the high CAC premise, leading Nathan to synthesize her logic into payback period thresholds.16:27–20:26 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Revenue Metrics, ARR Targets, and Churn Performance Nathan calculates ARR from customer count and minimum contract sizes, and drills down on churn metrics to clarify net negative churn versus net revenue retention.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%0:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%3:00 · Nathan 35.6% · guest 64.4%3:00 · Nathan 35.6% · guest 64.4%6:00 · Nathan 34.3% · guest 65.7%6:00 · Nathan 34.3% · guest 65.7%9:00 · Nathan 10.2% · guest 89.8%9:00 · Nathan 10.2% · guest 89.8%12:00 · Nathan 22.3% · guest 77.7%12:00 · Nathan 22.3% · guest 77.7%15:00 · Nathan 46.1% · guest 53.9%15:00 · Nathan 46.1% · guest 53.9%18:00 · Nathan 48.7% · guest 51.3%18:00 · Nathan 48.7% · guest 51.3%21:00 · Nathan 90.6% · guest 9.4%21:00 · Nathan 90.6% · guest 9.4%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 15:47 Rejection of Nathan's CAC hypothetical

Stacy firmly dismisses Nathan's proposed $250k onboarding cost scenario as completely unnecessary and unrealistic for their stage.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 17:42 Nathan drills into net churn percentage

Nathan repeatedly presses past Stacy's vague response to pin down the exact negative churn percentage and its translation to net revenue retention.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 8:43 Educating on why freemium fails for deskless workers

Stacy walks Nathan through the user psychology of field workers to show why standard consumer freemium playbooks fail in deskless enterprise environments.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 16:04 Nathan translates unit economics into payback rules

Nathan quickly recalculates Stacy's objections into formal SaaS payback period math to extract her operational threshold.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Zinc's Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Model 5312 Nathan asks straightforward questions about Zinc's pricing mechanics and user seat metrics. Stacy clearly articulates the deskless worker problem and explains their enterprise SaaS pricing model.
Origins from Kotap and the Rebranding of Zinc 4423 Nathan probes Stacy's CEO vs. founder title and attempts to unpack the Kotap asset spinout. Stacy corrects his terminology regarding taking companies private versus recapitalizing a startup.
Venture Capital Funding and Investor Support 5212 Nathan names Emergence Capital partners like Santi to demonstrate VC domain knowledge. Stacy elaborates on their $16M raised across Emergence, CRV, and GE Ventures.
Customer Adoption and Phasing Out Freemium 4412 Stacy explains why the freemium model failed for deskless enterprise workers and details their shift to enterprise trials. Nathan prompts for logo count and seat totals.
Sales Team Operations and Market Dynamics 6324 Nathan questions SDR-to-AE ratios and challenges whether try-before-you-buy models inflate CAC. Stacy explains that Zinc is standard across verticals unlike complex ERP solutions.
Risk Management, Sales Experiments, and Payback Cycles 6335 Nathan pitches a hypothetical high-cost acquisition scenario to test Stacy's decision framework. Stacy rejects the high CAC premise, leading Nathan to synthesize her logic into payback period thresholds.
Revenue Metrics, ARR Targets, and Churn Performance 6213 Nathan calculates ARR from customer count and minimum contract sizes, and drills down on churn metrics to clarify net negative churn versus net revenue retention.

Statements from this episode (15)

Disclosure
Zinc contract values range from $10k to nearly seven figures annually
“Anywhere from 10,000 dollars a year annually to close to seven figures per year annually.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 3:20
Disclosure
Zinc charges $10 to $20 per user per month
“10 to 20, depending on what they want, per user, per month.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 3:38
Disclosure
Zinc has raised $16 million in venture capital to date
“We've raised sixteen million to date.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 6:06
Disclosure
Zinc has about 70 enterprise customers
“Yeah, we have about 70 enterprise customers today.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 8:21
Disclosure
Zinc serves between 10,000 and 100,000 user seats
“Between 10 and a hundred.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 8:36
Insight
Frontline workers will not independently download work-specific messaging apps
“Nobody's looking for another messaging or communication app to put on their phone from a user perspective, right? Like even, okay, but this one's work-based. Who cares? You know, I just want to text my buddy. I'm not incented to go put a new app on my phone ju…”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 8:53
Disclosure
Zinc shut down its freemium model six months after launching
“We shut off freemium probably six months after we launched as zinc and basically said, Hey, you can do a free trial.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 9:35
Assertion Supported
Zinc deployed thousands of Dish Network technicians in two weeks
“Thousands of technicians live at Dish Network in two weeks.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 10:51
Disclosure
Zinc has a total team size of about 30 people
“We have about 30 people.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 11:05
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Zinc relies on outbound marketing because deskless software lacks inbound search
“And this is not a defined market, right? This is not something that's on PG&E's list to buy, right? And so, so they're not searching. They're not typing it into their Google browser. Like, we're still in heavy outbound Market awareness mode.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 11:41
Insight
Workplace communication platforms need minimal customization because basic workflows are universal
“Generally a communication platform is used in generally the same way, right? Like any given user is going to be sending texts, receiving texts, being added to groups You know, being on a conference call, it's very to use. It's easy to implement. There's not a …”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 14:02
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Zinc never needed $250K deployment costs to land big enterprise deals
“250 K at this stage of a company of a cost is a really high cost. So I don't think that that, I mean, I can just tell you right out of the gate, that's probably not necessary to go land some of these big deals. We haven't had to do that.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 15:51
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Zinc has surpassed $1 million in annual recurring revenue
“Yes, we have.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 16:47
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Zinc grew revenue between 100% and 150% over the trailing twelve months
“Between a hundred and a 150.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 17:24
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Zinc has achieved 117% net revenue retention
“17%.”
Stacy Epstein Apr 29, 2019 ▶ 17:57
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