Sep 10, 2022 · 16m · top-founders

Should you launch a new SaaS when your current one is doing $5m in ARR?

Jonathan Cock · 8m spoken Nathan Latka · 5m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this interview, host Nathan Latka speaks with serial entrepreneur Jonathan Cock about bootstrapping his new video recruitment platform, ClipDrop.io, while managing Talent Genie's $5 million ARR business. The conversation examines multi-product resource allocation, the strategic debate between storage-based and outcome-based SaaS pricing, and methods for scaling bootstrapped software ventures.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 36.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.6 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 2.6 Nathan pushing back 4.8
05100:0010:000:41–3:57 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Introducing Jonathan Cock and Talent Genie's Scale Latka drills into the metrics of Talent Genie, rapidly breaking down pricing tiers and distinguishing individual seats from client companies. Cock clarifies the market context between South Africa and global revenue to establish accurate ARR figures.3:58–7:50 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Launching ClipDrop and Debating Storage-Based SaaS Pricing Latka challenges Cock on why he is launching a new venture while sitting on a $5M business, and directly criticizes ClipDrop's storage-based pricing over a value-based hiring metric. Cock defends the model by pointing out recruitment volume fluctuations and competitor pricing structures.7:53–11:20 · Nathan as informed peer 8/10 Founderpath Valuation Tool Promotion and SaaS Benchmarking Latka cites industry comps like iCIMS and Jazz HR and argues that unlimited tracking caps net dollar retention. Cock pushes back by educating Latka on how ATS platforms actually function as workflow intermediaries rather than charging per hire.11:21–13:47 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Bootstrapping ClipDrop and Multi-Product Team Allocation Latka inquires about headcount distribution and capital cross-subsidization between Talent Genie and ClipDrop. Cock provides a straightforward breakdown of team allocations and his bootstrapping philosophy.13:47–16:00 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Jonathan Cock Latka conducts the Famous Five rapid-fire series and pushes back when Cock gives a non-answer to what he wished he knew at age 20. Cock complies and offers a specific reflection on learning to code earlier.0:41–3:57 · Guest teaching 3/10 Introducing Jonathan Cock and Talent Genie's Scale Latka drills into the metrics of Talent Genie, rapidly breaking down pricing tiers and distinguishing individual seats from client companies. Cock clarifies the market context between South Africa and global revenue to establish accurate ARR figures.3:58–7:50 · Guest teaching 4/10 Launching ClipDrop and Debating Storage-Based SaaS Pricing Latka challenges Cock on why he is launching a new venture while sitting on a $5M business, and directly criticizes ClipDrop's storage-based pricing over a value-based hiring metric. Cock defends the model by pointing out recruitment volume fluctuations and competitor pricing structures.7:53–11:20 · Guest teaching 5/10 Founderpath Valuation Tool Promotion and SaaS Benchmarking Latka cites industry comps like iCIMS and Jazz HR and argues that unlimited tracking caps net dollar retention. Cock pushes back by educating Latka on how ATS platforms actually function as workflow intermediaries rather than charging per hire.11:21–13:47 · Guest teaching 2/10 Bootstrapping ClipDrop and Multi-Product Team Allocation Latka inquires about headcount distribution and capital cross-subsidization between Talent Genie and ClipDrop. Cock provides a straightforward breakdown of team allocations and his bootstrapping philosophy.13:47–16:00 · Guest teaching 1/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Jonathan Cock Latka conducts the Famous Five rapid-fire series and pushes back when Cock gives a non-answer to what he wished he knew at age 20. Cock complies and offers a specific reflection on learning to code earlier.0:41–3:57 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Introducing Jonathan Cock and Talent Genie's Scale Latka drills into the metrics of Talent Genie, rapidly breaking down pricing tiers and distinguishing individual seats from client companies. Cock clarifies the market context between South Africa and global revenue to establish accurate ARR figures.3:58–7:50 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Launching ClipDrop and Debating Storage-Based SaaS Pricing Latka challenges Cock on why he is launching a new venture while sitting on a $5M business, and directly criticizes ClipDrop's storage-based pricing over a value-based hiring metric. Cock defends the model by pointing out recruitment volume fluctuations and competitor pricing structures.7:53–11:20 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Founderpath Valuation Tool Promotion and SaaS Benchmarking Latka cites industry comps like iCIMS and Jazz HR and argues that unlimited tracking caps net dollar retention. Cock pushes back by educating Latka on how ATS platforms actually function as workflow intermediaries rather than charging per hire.11:21–13:47 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Bootstrapping ClipDrop and Multi-Product Team Allocation Latka inquires about headcount distribution and capital cross-subsidization between Talent Genie and ClipDrop. Cock provides a straightforward breakdown of team allocations and his bootstrapping philosophy.13:47–16:00 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Jonathan Cock Latka conducts the Famous Five rapid-fire series and pushes back when Cock gives a non-answer to what he wished he knew at age 20. Cock complies and offers a specific reflection on learning to code earlier.0:41–3:57 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Introducing Jonathan Cock and Talent Genie's Scale Latka drills into the metrics of Talent Genie, rapidly breaking down pricing tiers and distinguishing individual seats from client companies. Cock clarifies the market context between South Africa and global revenue to establish accurate ARR figures.3:58–7:50 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Launching ClipDrop and Debating Storage-Based SaaS Pricing Latka challenges Cock on why he is launching a new venture while sitting on a $5M business, and directly criticizes ClipDrop's storage-based pricing over a value-based hiring metric. Cock defends the model by pointing out recruitment volume fluctuations and competitor pricing structures.7:53–11:20 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Founderpath Valuation Tool Promotion and SaaS Benchmarking Latka cites industry comps like iCIMS and Jazz HR and argues that unlimited tracking caps net dollar retention. Cock pushes back by educating Latka on how ATS platforms actually function as workflow intermediaries rather than charging per hire.11:21–13:47 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Bootstrapping ClipDrop and Multi-Product Team Allocation Latka inquires about headcount distribution and capital cross-subsidization between Talent Genie and ClipDrop. Cock provides a straightforward breakdown of team allocations and his bootstrapping philosophy.13:47–16:00 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Jonathan Cock Latka conducts the Famous Five rapid-fire series and pushes back when Cock gives a non-answer to what he wished he knew at age 20. Cock complies and offers a specific reflection on learning to code earlier.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 41.1% · guest 58.9%0:00 · Nathan 41.1% · guest 58.9%3:00 · Nathan 19.9% · guest 80.1%3:00 · Nathan 19.9% · guest 80.1%6:00 · Nathan 55.9% · guest 44.1%6:00 · Nathan 55.9% · guest 44.1%9:00 · Nathan 34.6% · guest 65.4%9:00 · Nathan 34.6% · guest 65.4%12:00 · Nathan 21.8% · guest 78.2%12:00 · Nathan 21.8% · guest 78.2%15:00 · Nathan 57.1% · guest 42.9%15:00 · Nathan 57.1% · guest 42.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 9:16 Cock rejects per-hire pricing premise

Cock firmly dismisses Latka's repeated premise that ATS platforms should charge per candidate hired, asking how that could realistically be measured and explaining the actual role of the software.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 6:13 Latka questions storage-based monetization

Latka refuses Cock's justification of storage pricing, insisting that the true value delivered is hiring candidates and that the pricing structure must reflect customer value.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 9:16 Cock explains recruitment software mechanics

Cock corrects Latka by explaining that applicant tracking systems operate strictly as intermediary workflow tools rather than success-fee recruiters, invalidating Latka's proposed pricing model.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 10:23 Latka breaks down NDR consequences

Latka demonstrates deep SaaS acumen by explaining that allowing unlimited applicant tracking eliminates expansion revenue and makes achieving 140-150% net dollar retention mathematically improbable.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Jonathan Cock and Talent Genie's Scale 6324 Latka drills into the metrics of Talent Genie, rapidly breaking down pricing tiers and distinguishing individual seats from client companies. Cock clarifies the market context between South Africa and global revenue to establish accurate ARR figures.
Launching ClipDrop and Debating Storage-Based SaaS Pricing 7447 Latka challenges Cock on why he is launching a new venture while sitting on a $5M business, and directly criticizes ClipDrop's storage-based pricing over a value-based hiring metric. Cock defends the model by pointing out recruitment volume fluctuations and competitor pricing structures.
Founderpath Valuation Tool Promotion and SaaS Benchmarking 8547 Latka cites industry comps like iCIMS and Jazz HR and argues that unlimited tracking caps net dollar retention. Cock pushes back by educating Latka on how ATS platforms actually function as workflow intermediaries rather than charging per hire.
Bootstrapping ClipDrop and Multi-Product Team Allocation 4213 Latka inquires about headcount distribution and capital cross-subsidization between Talent Genie and ClipDrop. Cock provides a straightforward breakdown of team allocations and his bootstrapping philosophy.
Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Jonathan Cock 3123 Latka conducts the Famous Five rapid-fire series and pushes back when Cock gives a non-answer to what he wished he knew at age 20. Cock complies and offers a specific reflection on learning to code earlier.

Statements from this episode (8)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Talent Genie serves about 400 customer companies across 1,500 seats
“There's probably a total of about 400 different companies using it at the moment.”
Jonathan Cock Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 3:12
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Cock: Talent Genie generates approximately $5M in annual revenue
“I think the business probably turns over about five million dollars.”
Jonathan Cock Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 3:36
Disclosure
Cock: ClipDrop offers unlimited vacancy subscriptions for $100 to $500 monthly
“Roughly about anywhere from a hundred to about 500 dollars a month, depending on the number of seats. Okay. So I think a 120 dollars a month for a single seat. See the model is slightly different to the traditional model. We are a subscription based service, s…”
Jonathan Cock Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 5:21
Assertion Supported
Cock: Most ATS platforms price per seat rather than tracked applicants
“There are not many systems that actually charge for the number of applicants that are actually being tracked. Generally speaking, when you look at an ATS, for instance, they'll be looking at seats. Some of them might cap it at a certain number of vacancies tha…”
Jonathan Cock Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 9:50
Insight
Latka: Unlimited applicant tracking caps SaaS net dollar retention
“I mean, the flip side of all this is if you're going to let people do unlimited tracking of applicants, you also effectively cut off your ability to ever reach a 140, a 150% net dollar retention, because you have no way to expand customers if, unless they're r…”
Nathan Latka Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 10:24
Disclosure
Cock: ClipDrop has converted approximately 10 beta users to paid
“Well, we currently have about 10 that have been converted from the beta customers so far.”
Jonathan Cock Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 10:58
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Cock: Talent Genie employs 11 full-time staff; ClipDrop employs 3
“So there's a, there's roughly about 11 people currently full-time fake focusing specifically on Talent Genie. We've got three on the ClipDrop side.”
Jonathan Cock Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 11:42
Disclosure
Cock: ClipDrop has been bootstrapped from the beginning
“Bootstrapped from the beginning.”
Jonathan Cock Sep 10, 2022 ▶ 12:36
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