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Dec 29, 2022 · 22m · top-founders

FinTech Helps Hotel Bed Owners in US Hedge FX Risk Selling to Travelers in Other Countries

Aaron Navin · 10m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Host Nathan Latka interviews GrainFinance.co founder Aaron Navin to explore how the venture-backed fintech platform embeds programmatic foreign exchange hedging into cross-border B2B transactions. The discussion delves into Grain's nineteen-million-dollar seed capitalization, low-spread monetization model, and vision to democratize risk management for global SMEs.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 41.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.9 Guest teaching 4.7 Guest disagreement 3.4 Nathan pushing back 5.4
05100:0010:0020:000:37–3:36 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Episode Preview and Business Model Overview Nathan presses Aaron to simplify financial jargon for the audience, repeatedly asking him to explain why people pay for hedging risk. Aaron educates the host and audience with an illustrative example of an American wine importer buying from Europe in euros.3:36–7:04 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Currency Volatility and Grain's Revenue Spread Model Nathan breaks down how Grain makes money on the spread and maps it to marketplace GMV calculations. Aaron explains the exact basis points structure and how banks overcharge compared to Grain's pricing.7:04–12:04 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Embedded Travel Finance and Cross-Currency Settlement Nathan drills down on Grain's business model, calling out Aaron for evading revenue questions by mentioning fundraising. Nathan challenges Aaron on selling significant equity in a large 19 million seed round.12:04–14:51 · Nathan as informed peer 8/10 Philosophical Debate on Venture Capital versus Bootstrapping A direct clash occurs over whether raising massive venture capital increases or decreases company risk. Aaron argues capital reduces risk and protects employees, while Nathan forcefully counters that high burn and high expectations increase risk dramatically compared to bootstrapping.14:52–17:48 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Aaron Navin's Trading Background and Israeli FinTech Venture Nathan probes Aaron's background and questions how investors allowed him to maintain a separate bootstrapped Israeli firm. When Aaron compares his multi-company management to Elon Musk, Nathan immediately pushes back stating Aaron is not Elon Musk.17:48–20:17 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Growth Projections and Expansion Beyond the Hospitality Vertical Nathan questions whether targeting 1 billion in GMV and 2 to 3 million in revenue is too slow for a company that raised 19 million dollars. Aaron defends his exponential roadmap across multiple industry verticals.20:17–22:26 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard rapid-fire Famous Five questions. Aaron gives idiosyncratic answers, noting he prefers physics books over business literature and wasn't impressed by Stephen Schwarzman's book.0:37–3:36 · Guest teaching 6/10 Episode Preview and Business Model Overview Nathan presses Aaron to simplify financial jargon for the audience, repeatedly asking him to explain why people pay for hedging risk. Aaron educates the host and audience with an illustrative example of an American wine importer buying from Europe in euros.3:36–7:04 · Guest teaching 6/10 Currency Volatility and Grain's Revenue Spread Model Nathan breaks down how Grain makes money on the spread and maps it to marketplace GMV calculations. Aaron explains the exact basis points structure and how banks overcharge compared to Grain's pricing.7:04–12:04 · Guest teaching 4/10 Embedded Travel Finance and Cross-Currency Settlement Nathan drills down on Grain's business model, calling out Aaron for evading revenue questions by mentioning fundraising. Nathan challenges Aaron on selling significant equity in a large 19 million seed round.12:04–14:51 · Guest teaching 5/10 Philosophical Debate on Venture Capital versus Bootstrapping A direct clash occurs over whether raising massive venture capital increases or decreases company risk. Aaron argues capital reduces risk and protects employees, while Nathan forcefully counters that high burn and high expectations increase risk dramatically compared to bootstrapping.14:52–17:48 · Guest teaching 5/10 Aaron Navin's Trading Background and Israeli FinTech Venture Nathan probes Aaron's background and questions how investors allowed him to maintain a separate bootstrapped Israeli firm. When Aaron compares his multi-company management to Elon Musk, Nathan immediately pushes back stating Aaron is not Elon Musk.17:48–20:17 · Guest teaching 5/10 Growth Projections and Expansion Beyond the Hospitality Vertical Nathan questions whether targeting 1 billion in GMV and 2 to 3 million in revenue is too slow for a company that raised 19 million dollars. Aaron defends his exponential roadmap across multiple industry verticals.20:17–22:26 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard rapid-fire Famous Five questions. Aaron gives idiosyncratic answers, noting he prefers physics books over business literature and wasn't impressed by Stephen Schwarzman's book.0:37–3:36 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Episode Preview and Business Model Overview Nathan presses Aaron to simplify financial jargon for the audience, repeatedly asking him to explain why people pay for hedging risk. Aaron educates the host and audience with an illustrative example of an American wine importer buying from Europe in euros.3:36–7:04 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Currency Volatility and Grain's Revenue Spread Model Nathan breaks down how Grain makes money on the spread and maps it to marketplace GMV calculations. Aaron explains the exact basis points structure and how banks overcharge compared to Grain's pricing.7:04–12:04 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Embedded Travel Finance and Cross-Currency Settlement Nathan drills down on Grain's business model, calling out Aaron for evading revenue questions by mentioning fundraising. Nathan challenges Aaron on selling significant equity in a large 19 million seed round.12:04–14:51 · Guest disagreement 7/10 Philosophical Debate on Venture Capital versus Bootstrapping A direct clash occurs over whether raising massive venture capital increases or decreases company risk. Aaron argues capital reduces risk and protects employees, while Nathan forcefully counters that high burn and high expectations increase risk dramatically compared to bootstrapping.14:52–17:48 · Guest disagreement 5/10 Aaron Navin's Trading Background and Israeli FinTech Venture Nathan probes Aaron's background and questions how investors allowed him to maintain a separate bootstrapped Israeli firm. When Aaron compares his multi-company management to Elon Musk, Nathan immediately pushes back stating Aaron is not Elon Musk.17:48–20:17 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Growth Projections and Expansion Beyond the Hospitality Vertical Nathan questions whether targeting 1 billion in GMV and 2 to 3 million in revenue is too slow for a company that raised 19 million dollars. Aaron defends his exponential roadmap across multiple industry verticals.20:17–22:26 · Guest disagreement 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard rapid-fire Famous Five questions. Aaron gives idiosyncratic answers, noting he prefers physics books over business literature and wasn't impressed by Stephen Schwarzman's book.0:37–3:36 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Episode Preview and Business Model Overview Nathan presses Aaron to simplify financial jargon for the audience, repeatedly asking him to explain why people pay for hedging risk. Aaron educates the host and audience with an illustrative example of an American wine importer buying from Europe in euros.3:36–7:04 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Currency Volatility and Grain's Revenue Spread Model Nathan breaks down how Grain makes money on the spread and maps it to marketplace GMV calculations. Aaron explains the exact basis points structure and how banks overcharge compared to Grain's pricing.7:04–12:04 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Embedded Travel Finance and Cross-Currency Settlement Nathan drills down on Grain's business model, calling out Aaron for evading revenue questions by mentioning fundraising. Nathan challenges Aaron on selling significant equity in a large 19 million seed round.12:04–14:51 · Nathan pushing back 8/10 Philosophical Debate on Venture Capital versus Bootstrapping A direct clash occurs over whether raising massive venture capital increases or decreases company risk. Aaron argues capital reduces risk and protects employees, while Nathan forcefully counters that high burn and high expectations increase risk dramatically compared to bootstrapping.14:52–17:48 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Aaron Navin's Trading Background and Israeli FinTech Venture Nathan probes Aaron's background and questions how investors allowed him to maintain a separate bootstrapped Israeli firm. When Aaron compares his multi-company management to Elon Musk, Nathan immediately pushes back stating Aaron is not Elon Musk.17:48–20:17 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Growth Projections and Expansion Beyond the Hospitality Vertical Nathan questions whether targeting 1 billion in GMV and 2 to 3 million in revenue is too slow for a company that raised 19 million dollars. Aaron defends his exponential roadmap across multiple industry verticals.20:17–22:26 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard rapid-fire Famous Five questions. Aaron gives idiosyncratic answers, noting he prefers physics books over business literature and wasn't impressed by Stephen Schwarzman's book.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 61.4% · guest 38.6%0:00 · Nathan 61.4% · guest 38.6%3:00 · Nathan 24.1% · guest 75.9%3:00 · Nathan 24.1% · guest 75.9%6:00 · Nathan 32.7% · guest 67.3%6:00 · Nathan 32.7% · guest 67.3%9:00 · Nathan 45.7% · guest 54.3%9:00 · Nathan 45.7% · guest 54.3%12:00 · Nathan 50.2% · guest 49.8%12:00 · Nathan 50.2% · guest 49.8%15:00 · Nathan 26% · guest 74%15:00 · Nathan 26% · guest 74%18:00 · Nathan 41.5% · guest 58.5%18:00 · Nathan 41.5% · guest 58.5%21:00 · Nathan 65.9% · guest 34.1%21:00 · Nathan 65.9% · guest 34.1%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 12:31 Aaron rejects Nathan's VC risk framing

Aaron explicitly rejects Nathan's thesis that large funding rounds increase company risk, arguing that holding more capital provides essential downside protection.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 17:04 Nathan refutes Elon Musk comparison

When Aaron attempts to justify running multiple concurrent businesses by comparing himself to Elon Musk running SpaceX and Tesla, Nathan immediately interrupts and rejects the comparison.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 2:16 Aaron illustrates FX risk mechanics

Aaron walks through a detailed real-world scenario of currency fluctuations impacting a US wine importer to clearly explain why hedging is necessary.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 13:20 Nathan details VC fund return mathematics

Nathan uses venture capital return probabilities and bootstrapping unit economics to demonstrate why building a 30 billion dollar company is statistically far riskier than building a profitable 10 million business.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Episode Preview and Business Model Overview 4614 Nathan presses Aaron to simplify financial jargon for the audience, repeatedly asking him to explain why people pay for hedging risk. Aaron educates the host and audience with an illustrative example of an American wine importer buying from Europe in euros.
Currency Volatility and Grain's Revenue Spread Model 6624 Nathan breaks down how Grain makes money on the spread and maps it to marketplace GMV calculations. Aaron explains the exact basis points structure and how banks overcharge compared to Grain's pricing.
Embedded Travel Finance and Cross-Currency Settlement 7437 Nathan drills down on Grain's business model, calling out Aaron for evading revenue questions by mentioning fundraising. Nathan challenges Aaron on selling significant equity in a large 19 million seed round.
Philosophical Debate on Venture Capital versus Bootstrapping 8578 A direct clash occurs over whether raising massive venture capital increases or decreases company risk. Aaron argues capital reduces risk and protects employees, while Nathan forcefully counters that high burn and high expectations increase risk dramatically compared to bootstrapping.
Aaron Navin's Trading Background and Israeli FinTech Venture 6557 Nathan probes Aaron's background and questions how investors allowed him to maintain a separate bootstrapped Israeli firm. When Aaron compares his multi-company management to Elon Musk, Nathan immediately pushes back stating Aaron is not Elon Musk.
Growth Projections and Expansion Beyond the Hospitality Vertical 7546 Nathan questions whether targeting 1 billion in GMV and 2 to 3 million in revenue is too slow for a company that raised 19 million dollars. Aaron defends his exponential roadmap across multiple industry verticals.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 3222 Nathan runs through the standard rapid-fire Famous Five questions. Aaron gives idiosyncratic answers, noting he prefers physics books over business literature and wasn't impressed by Stephen Schwarzman's book.

Statements from this episode (13)

Disclosure
Grain takes a 20 to 30 basis point spread on FX hedges
“It's basically 20, 30 basis points, you know, above my cost of hedging, which is actually very, very competitive.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 5:14
Assertion Contradicted
Navin: Local banks charge 4% to 5% for EUR/USD hedges
“I mean, if you would try to do that, for example, versus, I mean, with his local bank, you would pay, probably end up paying by four or five percent for the specific million dollars of euro dollar hedge.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 5:22
Disclosure
Navin: Grain Provides Embedded FX Hedging to Travel Platforms
“Actually, now we're serving, we are more of an embedded finance, so we are providing hedging, yeah, to travel platforms in the travel industry, ok?”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 7:25
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Navin: GrainFinance is pre-revenue, will generate revenue by January
“Yes, pre-revenue. But let's say September, January, we'll start generating revenues.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 9:40
Disclosure
Navin: GrainFinance raised a $19M seed round
“Nineteen million dollars.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 10:39
Disclosure
Navin: GrainFinance sold over 20% equity in its $19M seed round
“A little bit higher.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 11:33
Insight
Navin: 2% of a $30B company beats avoiding dilution
“So for me, let's say if I look in 10 years down the line, and I'll have even two percent, but from a thirty billion dollars business, I'll be okay with that. I don't care about the difference.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 11:53
Insight
Navin: Raising more capital reduces startup risk
“So the more money I have, you know, it's the less risk, I think, for the company.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 12:28
Insight
Latka: Raising more capital makes startups significantly riskier
“Significantly more risk, the more money you raise. Significantly more risk. You have to grow faster. Everyone burns more. You lose your creativity because everyone wants to throw money at problems. I would argue it's way riskier to raise a lot of money.”
Nathan Latka Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 12:33
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Navin's prior Israeli hedging business serves 1,500 corporate clients
“And six years ago, I found a company in that specific area as well, providing hedging for small, medium businesses in Israel. And in that specific company, I have already 1500 companies that are doing business with me.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 15:33
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Navin's prior Israeli FX hedging firm is profitable and bootstrapped
“And this is a very profitable business. And this is, that, that, the company was a bootstrap. No funding raising at all.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 16:22
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Navin: Grain will scale hedging volume to $15B by 2025
“No, I'm saying exponential, then in twenty-twenty-four, yeah, we will have probably between five to seven billion dollars of hedging, and then it's going in, in exponential way. So 24, 25, probably we're going to be like 15,000.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 18:40
Opinion
Navin: Unimpressed by Blackstone CEO Stephen Schwarzman's Book
“Read lately Stephen Schwarzman from Blackstone. Which I wasn't really impressed, actually, but that was the latest one I read.”
Aaron Navin Dec 29, 2022 ▶ 20:46
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